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Cpt_Farrel 20th September 2013 18:18

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
Those features could all be seen on Erla built G-10's too, but look at the spine, the lighter color is in the centre, with darker towards the tail and the canopy, on WNF aircraft there's a darker segment closer to the center of the spine with a lighter segment around the canopy. Sorry for the lack of example, can't get Flickr and Firefox to cooperate on my phone... :)

ouidjat 20th September 2013 19:02

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
Anders, Flickr was down this afternoon. :)

S Sheflin 21st September 2013 00:46

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
Hello everyone,

Regarding the Bf109G-10s with three-part RV bands and short II.Gruppe bars, correct me if I am wrong, but was not this question addressed and answered a year or so ago? As I recall it, the consensus at that time was that these distinctive Bf109G-10s were from JGr.300, and featured JG300’s blue/white/blue RV bands with short II./Gruppe bars.

On the question of Bodenplatte JG6 aircraft carrying red/white RV bands versus the proscribed white/red/white bands, after re-reading the appropriate CEA reports, it is my opinion that this is a case of misidentification. As an example, within the Crashed Enemy Aircraft (CEA) reports there are several where the personnel examining Bodenplatte Luftwaffe wrecks misidentified III.Gruppe bars as being parts of fuselage bands. In addition, CEA 264 contains a statement where they describe fuselage bands as being a, “white band outlined red.” Loss records show that this Bf109G-10 was from JG6. Since many of the aircraft involved were total wrecks, and the people examining them were working with small pieces, it is not surprising that misidentifications occurred.

Finally, as much as I know there are many who would wish it otherwise, I believe that JG52 and JG51 never operationally used their assigned RV bands.

Steve Sheflin

Marc-André Haldimann 21st September 2013 08:26

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source

Thanks for your insight. your appreciation of the CEA Reports is especially interesting, taking into account what actually was left over of the crashed planes... This makes a lot of sense for the variety of bands configurations recorded.

Back to the Bf 109 G-10's seen on Rick Hawkinson's Flickr account. I respectfully disagree with the JGr. 300 theory, mainly because none of the planes seen do sport the short black II Gruppe bar as all the other 13 referenced pics of JGr 300 do:

The Hawkinson pics do show destroyed machines their paints shining from being washed by the falling rain; the colors are thus vivid. That's how I come to the conclusion that the II Gruppe bars are yellow against the central white band; as for the outer darker RV Bands, be it bright green or bright red, I can't tell. One thing is sure though: their contrast is different from the pale blue used by JGr. 300.

One last point: the location of the Hawkinson pics: they were shot at Fels am Wagram, which never was a base for JG 300 or JGr. 300, but hosted II./JG 51 of which I so far never saw a single picture from their 1944-1945 machines...

To sum it up: more differences then convergences between the known JGr. 300 pictures and the Hawkinson Bf 109 G-10's...


ouidjat 21st September 2013 11:28

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
Hi Guys,

@As for II./JG 51 machines.
I think the only point to be clarified is when the 2nd Gruppe bar did change (if ever) from front cross position to back cross position. On Fels machine(s) the bar is obviously yellow (at least not white).

@As for "red outlined white band": why not?
So; we can suppose that concerning the following picture it has been described - if any report done - as "Yellow band outlined Red" comparing with "normal" RV bands. It's not a bit and pièces wreck yet we don't know the unit.
Without this photo in hands were we going to suppose it should have been "a case of misidentification"? (White 12).

@As for CEA 264.
Steve, the published page on Lu/Ga 4 is stating “The vertical band nearer the cockpit was painted red, whilst the aft band was painted white”.
Do you mean that Kees Mol didn’t have the whole report? Or that He did use only that page to prove his theory?
Did you read Kees Mol article? If yes, can you please use arguments written in this article with which you don’t agree?
Can you put a scan of the whole CEA 264 report or send me it in my mailbox please? It will be very helpful to make my own judgement.
Thanks very much for your kind help.

Regards, Franck.

Cpt_Farrel 21st September 2013 15:58

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
I would have agreed with Steve regarding the JG6 bands until I read Mols article, but now that I have I think he's got a good case with proof not only in CEARs but at least one photo.

I don't believe the Fels am Wagram machines to be JG6 anyway so for this case it's of no consequence. I'd say aircraft from III or IV JG300 is possible as they had darker blue than I and II gruppe.

As an outside possibility, when II./JG51 ended up at Wagram maybe they did paint up their aircraft with Green-white-Green after all? There's no photographs that proves the contrary anyway. It's different with JG52 as there's good photographic evidence that they did not use the bands.

It would be quite risky to say the least, for someone to say "let's skip those I.d. markings, we're about to lose anyway" :)


Marc-André Haldimann 21st September 2013 20:53

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
Thanks Anders for your thoughts!

The different hue of blue for III. or IV. JG 300 is something new to me; I would love to known from where did you find that out?

I totally agree with your JG 52 assessment, that's why I narrow my thoughts on II./JG 51 until proven otherwise. One has to bear in mind that the pictures were taken at Fels am Wagram; this is not a known base for JG 6 nor JG 300...


Cpt_Farrel 21st September 2013 21:51

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
Regarding the bands of III and IV JG300, it was mentioned in Lorants work I think. It's visible in photos but there was also combat reports from US pilots mentioned. They reported having encountered fighters with black and white stripes when date and location showed they must have met III or IV JG300 aircraft (can't recall which).


ouidjat 23rd September 2013 13:31

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
Hi Guys,

this photo:

Beate? She is a woman then ... Who was she? A pilot?

Regards, Franck.

ouidjat 23rd September 2013 13:34

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
Beate Uhse-Köstlin Ah yes, I see ...

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