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-   -   Late war Bf 109 pictures source (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=27108)

Marc-André Haldimann 24th September 2013 06:41

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ouidjat (Post 172703)
Hi Guys,

@As for II./JG 51 machines.
I think the only point to be clarified is when the 2nd Gruppe bar did change (if ever) from front cross position to back cross position. On Fels machine(s) the bar is obviously yellow (at least not white).

@As for "red outlined white band": why not?
So; we can suppose that concerning the following picture it has been described - if any report done - as "Yellow band outlined Red" comparing with "normal" RV bands. It's not a bit and pičces wreck yet we don't know the unit.
Without this photo in hands were we going to suppose it should have been "a case of misidentification"?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28092068@N03/8055999427/in/set-72157625380126592/ (White 12).

@As for CEA 264.
Steve, the published page on Lu/Ga 4 is stating “The vertical band nearer the cockpit was painted red, whilst the aft band was painted white”.
Do you mean that Kees Mol didn’t have the whole report? Or that He did use only that page to prove his theory?
Did you read Kees Mol article? If yes, can you please use arguments written in this article with which you don’t agree?
Can you put a scan of the whole CEA 264 report or send me it in my mailbox please? It will be very helpful to make my own judgement.
Thanks very much for your kind help.

Regards, Franck.

Excellent point, Franck!

"Weisse 12" is still puzzling us, no clues so far...bar the fact this three colors RV Band is still unaccounted for. And that it isn't JG or JGr 300... Our documentation of those "odd" or unseen before RV markings slowly comes together. Let's keep it up!

Cheers
Marc



Cheers
Marc

Marc-André Haldimann 24th September 2013 19:50

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi there Gang,

As a mean to clear collectively our ideas about Reichsverteidigung markings, I've just opened a new set collecting all identified late-war RV bands documented photographically:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7635848261393/

Please note, the fine classification is not yet done; I also went only through the Mtt and Erla built Bf 109 G-14's; all the others remain yet to be added. So far 62 pics.
Keep tuned for the completed set. I cross my fingers this new approach will widen our collective understanding, building on Kees Mol's paper in LuGa 4;-))

Cheers
Marc

Marc-André Haldimann 25th September 2013 13:22

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Ok Gang,

Here we go with all the Reichsverteidigung markings I could find: owing to their evolution, I elected to separate them in two different sets, one for 1944 and one for 1945:

1. 1944 markings (64 pictures):
- JG 1: 1
- JG 3: 1
- JG 3: 16
- JG 4: 2
- JG 25: 1
- JG 27: 12
- JG 53: 3
- JG 300: 22
- JG 301: 3
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7635869726996/

2. 1945 markings (136 pictures)
- JG 4: 12
- JG 5: 12
- JG 6 (?): 1
- JG 27: 32
- JG 51 (?): 3
- JG 53: 37
- JG 300: 19
- JG 301: 6
- JG 6*: 7
- JG 77: 1
- KG (J) 27: 2
- EKG (J): 1
Unidentified: 4
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7635848261393/

Just by compiling those two sets, many issues become clear. One of the biggest is the proper identification of the units with three color bands: to tell between JG 4, 6, 51 (?) and 300 is difficult at best.... Please note thus that all the proposed identifications are the ones commonly admitted so far; many are certainly arguable, not a few plain wrong... Hoping that this formidable collective intelligence which is TOCH will help straighten many records;-))

Let's roll
Marc


*according to Kees Mol's latest article

ChrisS 25th September 2013 17:31

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi Marc

What a very useful list! Upon checking my collection I find a small 'fruit' for your labour from Luftwaffe SIG Norway website is a repeat of Bf 109 G-14 W.Nr. 784 930 "Grüne 1", I./JG 77, Twenthe, Summer 1945.

Keep up the great work!

Chris

Marc-André Haldimann 25th September 2013 17:43

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Great shot!

Many thanks Chris, much appreciated! And yes, I'll keep it up, no worries;-))
Marc

ouidjat 25th September 2013 18:05

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thanks Chris!

And according to Kees Mol in Lu/Ga 4 this is JG 6 .... and the premise of that great new adventure!!!

And by the way, WNr. is 784938, not 784930. This is a well sprayed around error.

Cheers, Franck.

PS: Thanks Marc; well ... you know what.

Marc-André Haldimann 25th September 2013 18:22

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Franck, appreciated;-))

As for 784930, well it is still 784930. It was published before as 784938 (Mol 2013, LuGA 4, p. 52).

Cheers
Marc

ouidjat 25th September 2013 18:42

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Marc,

Well, there is a misunderstanding here.

P52 I agree the sentence isn't clear but P53 the WNr.784938 is written Under the profile. and repeated Under the photo page 55 and in the full text left of the picture.

My conclusion is that page 52 the sentence really means that "Grüne 1" was 784938 (instead of 784930) and that it was published AS 784930 instead of 784938.

Do you "see" the difference?

Cheers, Franck.

John Manrho 25th September 2013 20:07

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
This can not be a JG 6 a/c. The III. Gruppe bar is missing....I believe I also discussed this with Kees mol....:-) If somebody can scan that article in LuGa #4 for me I can check if I would change my mind.....

Marc-André Haldimann 25th September 2013 21:03

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ouidjat (Post 172839)
Marc,

Well, there is a misunderstanding here.

P52 I agree the sentence isn't clear but P53 the WNr.784938 is written Under the profile. and repeated Under the photo page 55 and in the full text left of the picture.

My conclusion is that page 52 the sentence really means that "Grüne 1" was 784938 (instead of 784930) and that it was published AS 784930 instead of 784938.

Do you "see" the difference?

Cheers, Franck.

Franck,

What I see on my side is W.Nr. 784 930 on all pages except p. 55...

Cheers
Marc


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