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-   -   Late war Bf 109 pictures source (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=27108)

ouidjat 25th September 2013 22:27

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Right!

and I'm sorry ... you got the rushes not the published article!! :D
I understand now you didn't!!

Cheers, Franck.

Cpt_Farrel 26th September 2013 00:35

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by John Manrho (Post 172842)
This can not be a JG 6 a/c. The III. Gruppe bar is missing....I believe I also discussed this with Kees mol....:-) If somebody can scan that article in LuGa #4 for me I can check if I would change my mind.....

Is there any proof that III./JG6 used gruppe bars at the time? It wasn't uncommon for some units to be without Gruppe bars so the fact that it's missing isn't proof alone imho.

/Anders

Marc-André Haldimann 26th September 2013 08:39

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ouidjat (Post 172851)
Right!

and I'm sorry ... you got the rushes not the published article!! :D
I understand now you didn't!!

Cheers, Franck.

Got it... Thanks!
Marc

PhilippeDM 26th September 2013 13:14

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Marc,

Beautifull collection of pictures and RV bands. However I feel you missed the Bf 109's wearing red/black KG(J)6 bands. Pictures appears in Polish and/or Czech publications. Could be K-4 types, but when I sniffed arround on your picture DB, I saw K-4 too (not to mention the color picture at Kaufbeuren with a KG(J)27 Bf 109....

Nick Beale 26th September 2013 16:25

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisS (Post 172833)
Hi Marc

Upon checking my collection I find a small 'fruit' for your labour from Luftwaffe SIG Norway website is a repeat of Bf 109 G-14 W.Nr. 784 930 "Grüne 1", I./JG 77, Twenthe, Summer 1945.

Chris

There are also two photos on page 144 of Smith & Gallaspy's "Luftwaffe Camouflage & Markings 1935–45, Vol. 3" (Kookaburra, 1977).

However, if it was at Twente, why does the A.I.2(g) report on the aerodrome mention only one aircraft there, an Me 262? This Bf 109 was out in the open by apparently undamaged hangars, so it's unlikely to have been overlooked. It wasn't in a remote dispersal, for example.

Cpt_Farrel 26th September 2013 18:58

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
It seems to me that the listing from Twente is from after VE day and could it be that by then, only aircraft of particular interest was listed?

/Anders

Marc-André Haldimann 26th September 2013 19:23

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Philippe,

Thanks for your praise:). You're correct about KG (J) 6; I remember having seen at least one such machine of which I don't have the pic. Any pointer?

Nick,

There's a real oddity here... Thanks for underlining it! By the way, i can't thank you enough for your publishing of original transcripts about those RV bands here: http://www.ghostbombers.com/markings/bands1.html

Through your website, you make us all precious gifts.
Marc

John Manrho 26th September 2013 22:04

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
I studied the LuWa article and still have the opinion that this is not a III./JG 6 a/c. Let me explain why.

First of all, as I stated above, the a/c has no vertical III. Gruppe bar. I have several pictures of 109's of III./JG 6 from the period Feb-April 1945 and these have all a vertical III. Gruppe bar. Unfortunately I have no picture of the Nov-Dec 1944 period. I had contact with 80 former members of III./JG 6 or their relatives but found no pictures of that period. The 109's from Sept-Oct 1944 show no bar, but that is obvious as these belonged to I./JG 5 which had no bar. One well known picture of WNr 491404 taken in March 1945 shows clearly the III. Gruppe bar. I see no reason why III./JG 6 would apply the vertical bars in February 1945 and not direct after their renaming in October 1944.

Indeed the crashed enemy aircraft reports give indications for the red-white-red markings of JG 6 a/c lost during Bodenplatte. Kogler's a/c (Stab JG 6) was marked red-white-red and according to CEA #264 Trost's a/c (2./JG 6)was marked white-red-white, which is more than likely a clerical error. The a/c of Jung (2./JG 6) and Fries (4./JG 6) were also found but were destroyed and no mention of the bands were made. Grabmair's Fw 190 (5./JG 6) was also found with a red-white-red band. It seems consistent that these 190's were marked with red-white-red.

The 109's are more difficult. Rose's a/c (9./JG 6) is mentioned in the CEA #264 but without bands, although he bellylanded his a/c. Perhaps not yet painted? Schlossborn's a/c (9./JG 6) was also found and again red-white-red is mentioned! Betz's a/c (10./JG 6) is mentioned in a seperate report and now only red-white is reported with red closer to the cockpit. However, I have a picture of the crashsite and the a/c is totally destroyed. Krumm's a/c (12./JG 6) is also in CEA #264 and now the bands are listed as red-white again. However, in my opinion not clearly described which band is first. Again, Krumm's a/c was totally destroyed.

Also the picture showing Schwerdtfeger's a/c is imho not conclusive, at least the red is closer to the cockpit and it might even be that the aft red band is not clearly visible. Also, although I used it in my Bodenplatte book, I am now not 100% convinced this is Schwerdtfeger's a/c.

Assuming that 784938 has a white-red band and belongs to III./JG 6 is for me a bridge too far.....

Regards,

John

Nick Beale 26th September 2013 22:37

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Also, the AI2(G) reports include several aircraft with the white/green band of JG 77. If we find photographs that appear to show a white/green marking that we know was allocated and we know was applied to operational aircraft, then that is pretty strong evidence that it is green/white. Of course a previously unknown, unofficial red/white marking is possible but if anyone is confident that he can tell red from green in a monochrome photo with certainty, he is way ahead of me!

I do agree with John that sometimes interpreting the crash reports is more art than science; different investigators reported in different ways and simple mistakes were made.

John Manrho 26th September 2013 22:42

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
In my Bodenplatte book you will find Abendroth's K-4 of III./JG 77 with white-green band (page 257).

Cheers,

John


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