Photo Short Aircraft
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a very nice photo of Short Type184 serial 8084 transferred to France in 1916 at:


https://www.ebay.it/itm/Photo-franca...YAAOSwjl1ev7m1




https://www.ebay.it/itm/Photo-franca...0AAOSwEfdev7js

Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Short Aircraft
 

Excellent find Clint

One can even see the c/n S.226.
Wonder what happened to it?

Lucien Morareau is very silent (can't find it indexed anywhere) so most likely it was tested and discarded.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Short Aircraft
 

Stig,


I wonder if its significant that Sturtivant and Page in Royal Navy Aircraft Serials and Units 1911-1919 write transferred to the French Government, rather than to the French Navy?


How's your french. I could try posting a question on Aeroforums which might produce more information, though my french is limited.


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Short Aircraft
 

Well Clint

Starting with my French all I can say it is fortunate this forum is silent, speaking wise, since right now I believe our French friends have enough with the Corona virus. We don't need half the population laughing itself to death....:o

I believe any contracts between France and Britain were Government to Government so such wordings don't have to mean much really, but you have a point. France has always been masters in bringing out various odd institutions not belonging to any of the true military forces, but somewhere in a kind of limbo. So yes, the 184 could well have ended up within some testing place/unit run by something which at least I don't know anything about.

If you want to, yes please, put something up on the Aeroforums. It will at least save my face....;)

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Short Aircraft
 

Hello Stig,


Thanks to the helpful Paul Badre at Aerostories : http://www.aerostories.org/~aeroforums/forumnav/ I can now say why the two Short 8083 & 8084 do not appear in the index of Lucien Moreau's Les Aeronefs de l'Aviation Maritime. To whit they were army machines.


Using the link provided by Paul Badre http://albindenis.free.fr/Site_escad...les_Cazaux.htm both photos I posted can be seen (in my defence they are from the same source as given by the seller, so are original). So both machines served with the Ecole de Tir Aérien at Cazaux.


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Short Aircraft
 

Thanks Clint

That was a surprise! Why on earth would the Army be training their pilots on all these floatplanes and seaplanes?

I can understand the reasoning behind having firing practice on a lake, but why use so many typical Naval aircraft? Some Naval aviators obviously passed the Cazaux school but most were Army pilots/observers, both French and American. Why not use Army aircraft (on wheels) to shoot up targets on the lake?

Both Shorts also seems to have at least been evaluated by the Navy before being discarded to the Army.

I wonder if all the sea/float planes which were used at Cazaux were taken from Naval orders or if the French Army ordered such aircraft as well?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Short Aircraft
 

Hi Stig,


I taske it that you have information indicating evaluation by the Navy for the two Shorts. Subsequent to your last post I've followed this up with Paul on Aerostories and he indicates that they went straight to the Aviation Militaire.


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Short Aircraft
 

OK Clint

Works for me. However the Albin Denis site (at least with a google translation)
says: These two seaplanes were supplied by England to the French government for evaluation in May 1916. (numbers N8083 and N8084 - manufactured by Shorts Brothers, Rochester). Not retained by naval aviation, they were used for a time by the shooting school for the towing of targets.
use by the Cazaux shooting school

Also the original French text says the same, but perhaps I am reading to much into such a sentence in the first place.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Short Aircraft
 

Hi Stig,


Having seen that I don't find your reading unlikely.If something is not retained, well logically...



Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Short Aircraft
 

Hello,


Today on ebay is a photo of a Short Seaplane of the RNAS, Short S.41 perhaps?:


http://www.ebay.fr/itm/RPPC-AVIATION...YAAOSwKltezMwL


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Short Aircraft
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of a Short Admiralty Type 81 Floatplane at:


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WW1-Royal...8AAOSwfEJezR2w


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Short Aircraft
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of a Short Type 184, presumably operating alongside Italian units at:


https://www.ebay.it/itm/RARA-AVIAZIO...QAAOSwhqhaS4eP


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Short Aircraft
 

Pity the photo is scanned so lousy Clint

There is a whole book about the RNAS in Italy.
It is unreachable at the moment.
Will check it out tomorrow

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Short Aircraft
 

Hallo again Clint

The aircraft is not possible to identify. RNAS had numerous Shorts in the Adriatic such as

N1153
c/n S.357
with the text
Short Bros.
Aeronautical Engineers
Rochester. England.

There were others carrying essntially the same markings only differing in the serial number and c/n written on their rear. Shown in photos are N1305 and N1308.

The book, which I think you should get, is In the Skies of Forgotten Courage by Andrea Casarrubea (Aeronaut Books). It's very good!

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Short Aircraft
 

Hi Stig,


Thanks for looking anyway. I really didn't expect an id on this one. I'll bear in mind your book recommendation, but i've just forked out for Salvat Ubi Lucet. La base idrovolanti di Porto Corsini e i suoi uomini (1915-1918). So following one or two other orders this month, I'm actually going to have to read some of them rarther than just order them :) and I've still to finish mining I Reparti yet.


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Short Aircraft
 

Hello,

10 Short "320" (ADMIRALTY 310A-4 TYPE) TRACTOR BIPLANE SEAPLANES ordered 11.16 under Cont No A.S.1344, numbered N1150 to N1159 & built Rochester. (320-hp Cossack) [Gordon Bruce's researches show correct c/n's to be S.354 to S.363*)

N1153.

Deld Grain and accepted 3.4.17 (Parker); Accepted 8.4.17 (Parker); Shipped to Otranto 19.5.17; Recd 6 Wing Otranto (coded '3') by 6.7.17; Deleted W/E 7.4.18.

See:
Royal Naval Aircraft Serials and Units 1911 to 1919.
Sturtivant,Ray & Gordon Page.
Tonbridge:Air-Britain(Historians),1992.
pp.198, 460* & 463*

*
A Reconciliation of Short's Constructor's Numbers with Actual and Reported Naval Serials.

This Appendix has been contributed by Gordon Bruce and summarises his researches over many years into Shorts archives, the Public Record Office and other sources. Linkage of c/n's to Naval serials and Type descriptions are taken from direct references in Shorts Order Book (which was lost for many years) and from contemporary Shorts written records unless shown otherwise by the use of brackets. In most of the bracketed cases, however, linkage can be made by the use of the use of other sources. The reference to H M Lists are to the PRO Lists of H M Naval Aircraft Built, Building and under Repair (noting that the historical parts of the March 1918 List are not entirely reliable).

NAVAL WING R.F.C. NUMERICAL SERIES - From September 1912.

N1150 - N1159 - S.354 to S.363 - 310-hp Sunbeam torpedo carrier.

Col.

Re: Photo Short Aircraft
 

Hello Col,


Thanks for the correct identity of the type of machine shown. Next time I see a short Floatplane I won't be so quick to assume Type 184.


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Short Aircraft
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of two early RNAS aircraft, Short Tractor Biplane serial No.42 and Royal Aircraft Factory B.E.2a serial No.50 at:


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1914-Roya...4AAOSwZXFfGIeP


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Short Aircraft
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay are two photos of the Short S.41 at:


https://www.ebay.it/itm/Flying-at-Po...oAAOSwWVxfSiWI


https://www.ebay.it/itm/Flying-at-Po...wAAOSwhgRfSiXd


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Short Aircraft
 

Clint

Just so I don't have to re-invent the wheel, do you first of all mean Type S.41 or works number S.41?
Secondly how do you clinch this one to be what ever above?

The guy before you (see flip side) is not sure if it is the S.41 or S.38.

After all, it is not first class photos.... :)

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Short Aircraft
 

Hi Stig,


I intended the S.41 to refer to Short's construction number - the future Navy number 10. I thought given the lack of markings that it was unlikely to be a Short Improved S.41 RNAS serials 20 & 21 where the serial appears on the tail.


I thought the Short construction number 38 was a pusher, not so?


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Short Aircraft
 

He he Clint

I haven't started looking yet. All I wanted to know was what you referred to, so thanks for answering.

I think some time ago the Short works numbers were more or less re-worked by a man called Gordon Bruce and perhaps the flip side refers to a time before that?

Anyway now that I know what you refer to I will look at the photos again and check my Short records

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Short Aircraft
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of Short Bomber 9834 with the erroneous serial N9834 at:


https://www.ebay.com/itm/SHORT-SEAPL...sAAOSw0FRfw~-i


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Short Aircraft
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay the following two images of Short Type 184 N2642:


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/C-Glass-L...MAAOSwl3xf8jHA


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/B-Glass-L...wAAOSwuN5f8jA-


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Short Aircraft
 

Hello


Currently on ebay is a photo of Short Gun Carrying Seaplane RNAS serial 126 at:


https://www.ebay.com/itm/11491978980...4AAOSwEvZhCaSF


This image may have been seen before,but the quality of the photo is particularly good.


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Short Aircraft
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay are a couple of photos of Short Admiralty Type 827 floatplanes,8225 & 8638, I think,not certain however.




https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/364716707...UAAOSwqHNlu2Ev


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/325994611...QAAOSwJwxlu2AO


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Short Aircraft
 

Clint

Nice find as usual.
I would say 8225 is correct, but the next one is 8636 which is known to have been delivered
to Yarmouth by road in April 1916, erected one month later and accepted 21 June that year.

8638 on the other hand never went to Yarmouth but Calshot.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Short Aircraft
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of Short Admiralty Type 827 serial 824


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/375298347...EAAOSwBmtl6kXC


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Short Aircraft
 

Clint

Since No 824 spent close to a year onboard HMS Campania in 1915 I feel it is quite likely
it is either on or off lifted that ship in the photo.

Cheers
Stig