Me 410 top ace
 

Hello there gentlemen,

can anybody tell me who the top Me 410 ace is ?
I assume it must be one of those:

• Rudolf Dassow, 8-21 Me 410 kills
• Eduard Tratt, 10-16 Me 410 kills
• Fritz Strehle, 7-11 Me 410 kills

Thanks in advance,

Michael

Me 410 top ace
 

Hi Michael

Here are various pilots that made ace with the Me 410:

Major Eduard Tratt of II./ZG 26 with nine victories.
Leutnant Rudolf Dassow of II./ZG 26 with nine victories.
Oberleutnant Friedrich Stehle of II./ZG 26 with seven victories.
Major Dietrich Puttfarken of II./KG 51 with five victories.
Leutnant Wilhelm Büschen of II./ZG 26 with five victories.
Oberfeldwebel Wilhelm Frös of II./ZG 26 with five victories.

I hope this helps and any comments or corrections will be most welcome.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Me 410 top ace
 

Dear Leo,

thanks for your answer. Büschen and Frös are new to me.
Do your figures reflect mininum Me 410 scores or exact Me 410 scores ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Me 410 top ace
 

Gentlemen,

Please verify these claims before accepting my word for it. I have interpolated the misspellings and jumped to the conclusion that the team of pilot Feldwebel Johann Trenke and his radio-operator Unteroffizier Josef Ottrin of 16/KG2, later 6/KG51, should share the responsibility for the following twelve intruder claims credited to one or the other. I found the claims on the asisbis.com site of Luftwaffe Aerial Victories.

In 16/KG2:
"Treicke" 11 Aug. "Stirling" 02/00716 2800m 14.25hrs
1943


In 6/KG51:
"Trenke" 22 Apr. "Fortess" 1384/05 Ost E 22.04hrs
1944
"Trenke" 22 Apr. "Halifax" 1384/05 Ost E 22.10hrs
1944
"Trenke" 22 Apr. "Halifax" 1385/05 Ost E 22.16hrs
1944
"Trenke" 27 Apr. "Unknown" 0356/05 Ost E 04.25hrs
1944
"Trenke" 22 May "Lancaster" 0489/05 Ost E 1200m 03.05hrs
1944
"Trenke" 22 May "Lancaster" 0317/05 Ost E 800m 03.14hrs
1944
"Trenke" 22 May "Lancaster" 0324ZZ/05 Ost E 800m 03.22hrs
1944
"Ottren" 13 June "unknown" 4381ZZ/Ost E 200m 01.25hrs
1944
"Ottren" 17 June "4-motor a/c" 2225/05 Ost E 4500m 02.00hrs
1944
"Trenke" 17 June "4-motor a/c" 1211/05 Ost E 02.15hrs
1944
"Frenke" 03 Jul. "unknown" 007/05 Ost S 500m 0014hrs
1944

They were in Me 410s.

Best regards,

Jim Geens

Me 410 top ace
 

Hi guys

The Nachtjagd War Diaries by Boiten and Mackenzie credit Feldwebel Johann Trenke of 6./KG 51 with nine victories although only eight are listed:

22 April 1944 Fortress 22:04 Sea, 120 or 170 km SE Peterhead
22 April 1944 Halifax 22:10 Coast at, or S of, Aldeburgh
22 April 1944 Halifax 22:16 Sea, 10-20 km ESE Aldeburgh
27 April 1944 A/c 4:25 1-8 km W Mildenhall
22 May 1944 Lancaster 3:05 3-13 km W-NW Blakeney Point
22 May 1944 Lancaster 3:14 15-25 km WNW King's Lynn
22 May 1944 Lancaster 3:22 10-20 km NE King's Lynn
17 June 1944 Viermot 2:15 Thames Estuary, S Clacton-on-Sea

Luftwaffe Night Fighter Combat Claims by Foreman and Parry list his final victory as:

3 July 1944 A/c 0:14 05 Ost S/007 at 500 m

Many thanks to Jim for bringing this fellow to our attention.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Me 410 top ace
 

Hmm...
I wonder if Dassow's Me 410 score might be much higher.
Has his full victory list survived to our days ?

Michael

Re: Me 410 top ace
 

All

Jan Horn (in Das Flurschaden-Geschwader) confirms the Trenke/Ottrin connection on both dates in question. Strangely he is the only one, beside Jim, making this connection.

The victories are listed by Boiten/Mackenzie in their book, but no connection made. In their defence I don't believe they made any study of the intruder's business end, but simply list their claims for completeness sake.

Neither does Matthews/Foreman list the two 'Ottren' victories under Trenke.

The 'odd-man-out' so to speak is the daylight claim made by Uffz 'Treicke' with 16./KG 2. I have no KG 2 sources and all I can say is that the individual is listed in Tony Wood's 1943 claims list. Treicke is not an impossible name to have in Germany I guess, so I am not able to verify (or deny) any connection made by Jim.

The interesting thing, to me, is actually the recording procedure here. Without knowing, I would have thought the crew filed their claims together and that also gunners, radar-operators etc received some kind of credit. In the cases here it seems we have two claims made by Ottrin without naming his pilot. First of all it indicates he used the aircraft defensive armament to score which must have been rather unusual. Secondly it also indicates he did not mention his pilot's name when filing his claim.
Was that normal procedure?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Me 410 top ace
 

Treicke is not an impossible name to have in Germany I guess

There are none in the German telephone system, however: http://www.verwandt.de/karten/absolut/treicke.html

Re: Me 410 top ace
 

Get your point Nick :)

Well, anyone who can verify the Treicke/Trenke connection?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Me 410 top ace
 

The problem has been over the years the various sources interpreted different ways due to handwriting I believe. I have Uffz Johann Treicke claiming a Stirling 11 Aug 43 with 16/KG 2. He then appears again 22 Apr 43 as Fw Johann Trenke with 6/KG 51-one record had him as Fw Dormsten! Trenke's last kill was from what I can see 3 Jul 44. He was awarded the DKiG. As to Ottrin/Ottren/Ostrzic, his name crops up with Stab II/KG 51 on 13 June and 6/KG 51 on 17 June 1944 and yes, it was possible for gunners to claim separately from pilots-prime example if Fw Gustav Delp, BF to Lt Wolfgang Wenning. Not sure where the christian name came from-he never got the DKiG or Pokal

Re: Me 410 top ace
 

Nice Chris :)

Now we have a Christian name, Johann, to the Treicke as well, which was also the Christian name of Trenke. Looks, after all, like we do have a match!

I fail however to see how anyone can interpret his name into Dormsten:confused:

With regard to the handwriting, yes I agree, and (this time I state tongue in cheek) it seems most individuals were studying for a post war career in the medical profession... :D

Cheers
Stig

Re: Me 410 top ace
 

Trenke still with 6.KG51 i march 1945 as Fw

Rémi

Re: Me 410 top ace
 

Trenke is on the JV44 list of 27 April 1945.

Jim

Re: Me 410 top ace
 

Brütting (1993) lists Johann Trenke as RK-recipient on 05Sep44 being a FjFw in 6./KG51 then.

I'm still intrested if the most probable Me 410 total of Dassow is higher than Trenke's possible 12, because I want to determine the Me 410 top ace.

Michael

Re: Me 410 top ace
 

If somebody has a total victory list for Dassow.... then...I would be more than interested....:-))).....although his total is sometimes listed as 22 (Obermaier) I have never seen a list which substantiates this.....

John

Me 410 top ace
 

Hi guys

All that I have on this ace regarding his victory list are the nine claims with ZG 26 listed by Wood as well as the one Spitfire claimed on 10 April 1943 according to Obermaier. I would presume that the remaining 12 victories were claimed on the Eastern Front assuming that the total he is generally credited with is correct. However, as we have seen since the claims microfilms appeared not always are these totals correct. I was seeing that the 8 October 1943 claim was recorded with Stab/ZG 26 which appears to have been flying the Bf 110 G-2 at the time so his Me 410 total therefore was possibly eight. Any comments or corrections will be appreciated.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Me 410 top ace
 

The Tratt kill list of Luftwaffe.cz
http://www.luftwaffe.cz/tratt.html
implies that re rather achieved at least 10 kills in the Me 410.
The 12 Viermot kills attributed to Dassow imply a higher Western front kill share than just 9.
How certain is the Johann Trenke/Josef Ottrin association ?

Michael

Me 410 top ace
 

Hi Michael

I was lucky enough to come across the full Tratt victory list and nine of his claims were recorded as Gruppenkommandeur of II./ZG 26 flying the Me 410. As for Dassow it is true that he is generally credited with 12 four-engined bombers but as far as I know his complete victory list is unknown and therefore it is quite possible that this number is in error. Hopefully in the future new documentation will come to light and we will have complete and accurate information but for now the state of things is rather fragmentary. It is an unfortunate fact that many records are lost to us and thus what we know about these fellows is quite piecemeal.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Me 410 top ace
 

Hi Michael,

This site has a great research engine. I was looking for info on the intruder claims of KG2 and KG51 when I came across a thread from December 2011 entitled "Re:KG51 Air Combat Kills 1944. In it you will find a post from Chris Goss which in part states:
"For Ottren read Uffz Josef Ottrin, BF to Trenke".
I consider Chris right up there with Johannes.

Jim

Re: Me 410 top ace
 

Good morning Leo,

a full Tratt victory list ? Cool !
Does it feature 35 or 38 kills ?

Cheers,

Michael

Me 410 top ace
 

Hi Michael

It features 37 confirmed claims and one unconfirmed claim in total. I hope this helps.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Me 410 top ace
 

Hello Leo,

mmh, is it possible to attribute 28 of these kills to the Me 110 ?

Have a nice evening,

Michael

Me 410 top ace
 

Hi Michael

I would say that at least 26 of these were recorded with the Bf 110. Two were claimed with EKdo 25 and I have no idea what he was flying when he recorded these. Hopefully, someone else can clarify this point.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Me 410 top ace
 

Dear Leo,

thanks for your post.
Do you mean the following two kills ?:
a) 21/05/43 B-17 with Ekdo 25 => that Kommando was a Fw190 unit in May43
b) 13/06/43 B-17 with Ekdo I./JG1 => Tratt is said to have briefly commanded a JG1 Test Unit, experimenting with mortar-carrying Fw 190's. I think that was when he scored this kill.

Can you tell me the date of his unconfirmed kill ?

Michael

Me 410 top ace
 

Hi Michael

Yes, those are the two victories claimed with EKdo 25 that I was referring to. The unconfirmed victory that I am aware of is:

1 June 1940 6:45 Spitfire 1./ZG 1 Dunkirk

I hope this helps.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Me 410 top ace
 

Good evening Leo,

hmm...would you be so kind to cross-check your Tratt list with the Luftwaffe.cz list which implies he scored kills #29-38 [=10] in his Me 410 tour ?:
http://www.luftwaffe.cz/tratt.html

I'm looking forward to your answer because for the designation of the Me 410 top ace rank it might be really important if Tratt has 9 or 10 Me 410 kills.

Sincerely,

Michael

Me 410 top ace
 

Hi Michael

Please be aware that since the time that thumbnail biography was posted (26 February 2005) much new information has come to light. Kacha doubtless wrote it with the best information at the time but since then as I have mentioned I was fortunate enough to come across this complete victory list and thus the gaps in the claims list have been closed. In particular, the excellent Die Jagdfliegerverbände der Deutschen Luftwaffe 1934 bis 1945 series by Prien, Rodeike, Bock and Stemmer has been immeasurably useful for complete claim and loss lists concerning the various aces but this effort is still in progress. I hope this helps.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Me 410 top ace
 

Good evening Leo,

what I tried to express and ask for is, could you have a look if the 9 Me 410 kills in your list include all the 7 Me 410 kills of the Kacha list ? If not so, there might be 10 Me 410 kills instead of 9.

Cheers,

Michael

Me 410 top ace
 

Hi Michael

Yes, the list that I have includes those victories. The two other claims were recorded on 29 November 1943 and 1 December 1943. I hope this helps.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Me 410 top ace
 

Good morning Leo,

this helps a lot. Thanks you very much.

It looks like Mister Trenke has the edge in terms of Me 410 kills.
BTW does a photo of Johann Trenke exist ???

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Me 410 top ace
 

Good evening,

combining everything I found with what I gratefully learned from Johannes and Leo Etgen, the following Me 410 ace ranking seems reasonable to me:

- Johann Trenke 10+3 by his gunners, KG2/KG51
- Rudolf Dassow 8-21, ZG26
- Eduard Tratt 7+3 unconfirmed, ZG26
- Eberhard Baier 7, KG51
- Friedrich Stehle 6-7, ZG1/ZG26
- Wolfgang Wenning 4+2 by his gunner+1 unconfirmed, KG51
- Wilhelm Frös 5, ZG26
- Dietrich Puttfarken 5 or less, KG51
- Wilhelm Büschen 5 or less, ZG26

Now I hope somebody grants me a look on a photo of Trenke and somebody reveals the correct Me 410 score of Dassow.

Cheers from Brandenburg

Michael

Re: Me 410 top ace
 

Luftfahrtverlag Start published a two volume book on RK of the KG. You will find pictures of Trenke in there.

Does anybody have an accurate list of Stehle's victories before he joined JG 6?

Cheers,

John

Re: Me 410 top ace
 

Hello John,

Stehle's kills before JG6, here you go:
14.10.43 8./ZG 1 B-17
22.2.44 5./ZG 26 B-17
24.2.44 5./ZG 26 B-17
25.2.44 5./ZG 26 B-24
6.3.44 5./ZG 26 B-17
20.6.44 5./ZG 26 B-24
20.6.44 5./ZG 26 B-24

Could you maybe post a Trenke photo ?...Just wanna have a look :-)

Have a nice Friday,

Michael

Re: Me 410 top ace
 

If you cannot get access to this book, PM me as I have one of him at his RK award ceremony

Re: Me 410 top ace
 

Hello Chris,

thanks a lot for your help.
Now the only one able to push away Trenke from the Me 410 top ace rank is maybe Rudi Dassow.
Can anybody give an assumption where his missing 13 claim might be suspected ? In ZG1 ? In ZG26 ? In or even in JG6 ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Me 410 top ace
 

Michael,

I already stated on the other post that Dassow was killed on 25.08.1944 and had no claims with JG 6.

John

Re: Me 410 top ace
 

Hmm...are you totally sure ? JG6 was established in July and victory records might be incomplete...

Michael

Me 410 top ace
 

Hi Michael

II./ZG 26 was redesignated II./JG 6 on 5 August 1944. The unit did not receive its new Fw 190 A-8 fighters until that month as can be seen on the strength returns: http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biijg6.html The action in which Rudolf Dassow was lost was the first large-scale operation of the Gruppe which had arrived in France only three days before. I would certainly trust anything John Manrho states as it is clear that he is a very serious researcher: http://www.amazon.com/Bodenplatte-Lu.../dp/1902109406 Unfortunately, there is very little that one can state regarding his possibly missing victories as the records appear to be lost to us. Apparently, he was posted to 1./ZG 1 based on the Eastern Front in May 1942 but was transferred to 7./ZG 1 based in North Africa on 27 July 1942. If this is true then his time in Russia was rather brief.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Me 410 top ace
 

All kinds of things *might* be possible but the answers people are giving you are based on research. You are asking yet more questions in return but perhaps it is time for you to share the research that you have done so that people can see if your questions and doubts are reasonable.

Re: Me 410 top ace
 

Hello Leo,

thanks for your post.
Was his posting to ZG1 in May 1942 the beginning of his frontline service ?
In "Messerschmitt Bf 110: Die Rehabilitierung eines Flugzeuges" Mr Ziefle implies Dassow scored all his kills in the Me 210/410. I wonder if this is true.

Have a nice Sunday,

Michael