Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum

Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/index.php)
-   Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/forumdisplay.php?f=8)
-   -   Losses German Bight 18.12.1939 (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=36794)

Marius 11th February 2014 09:46

Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 
Hello all,
can somebody tell me if the German aerial victories against the Wellington formations are somewhere documented with place, time etc ?

Where can we find the detailed (and all!) British losses of this raid ?

Thanks and best regards,
Marius

Chris Goss 11th February 2014 10:56

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 
I believe that a book has been written on this plus numerous articles. RAF losses are fully detailed in a Bill Chorley's Bomber Command Losses Vol 1

Marius 11th February 2014 11:49

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 
In Chorkey`s Bomber Command Losses Vol.1 you will find 12 losses only. But what about the rest ? Further 3 or even 6 aircraft crashed on return to England.
Who published the complete toll of losses ?

ju55dk 11th February 2014 11:53

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 
"But what about the rest ? Further 3 or even 6 aircraft crashed on return to England."

Where does this information comes from?

Junker

Marius 11th February 2014 13:53

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 
For example:

J.Prien - Geschichte des Jagdgeschwaders 77 Teil 1, page 133.
12 failed to return + 8 or more crashed/forcelanded.

C.Shores - Fledgling Eagles, page 140.
11+1 + 6 more crashed/forcelanded reaching English coast.

Regards,

ju55dk 11th February 2014 14:44

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 
Sadly both are secondary sources. Priens JG 77 have another unsourced claim, concerning the 13 august 1940 attack on Aalborg. Claiming that twice the number attacked, wich is simply untrue!

Junker

Marius 11th February 2014 15:12

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 
Nevertheless I think the authors used relevant sources...
By the way, it is most propable the RAF lost much more aircraft crashed or forcelanded on England soil then only the 12 which completely failed to return - means crashed into the North Sea.

I don`t think there is something untrue done by above authors. More, the British point of view seems to be much problematic even now, 75 years after the battle.
I only wrote about the losses of Squadrons 9,37,38 & 149 passing Heligoland. But it is sure pilots of 2./ZG 76 (among others) attacked the second formation of Wellingtons, which - believing some authors - was not existent.(!?)

Regards,

Andrei Demjanko 11th February 2014 16:13

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 
Aircraft force-landed not always means 'aircraft crash-landed' on return to base or elswere. It also means that aircraft not returned to the aerodrome, which was the unit's base, and landed on another airfield due to fuel situation, weather, battle damage, whatewer reason.

Speaking of 18 December 1939 I have data only for 9 Sqn. Of nine aircraft from this unit participating, only two returned to base at Honington. Five aircraft of the unit were lost in this operation. Two of their Wellingtons were damaged in aerial combat, one landed on return at North Coates and another landed at Sutton Bridge, the latter aircraft with two wounded crewmen aboard. These two aircraft are certainly amongst those, mentioned by Shores and Prien

BigWeeker 12th February 2014 00:12

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 
Suggest people read Robin Holmes's "The Battle Of Heligoland Bight" All requested details contained therein....
BW

Marius 12th February 2014 00:22

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 
Well, four Squadrons flew in along Heligoland with 22 aircraft. Besides the 9 Sqd it is still possible several Wellingtons did not return to their bases as mean Shores &r Prien.

Much more interesting is the second formation with similar strenght of Wellingtons which flew partially over ground from the west appr. half an hour later. I am still waiting for the Holme`s book. But I heard he wrote about the Heligoland formation only. (?)


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 03:52.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net