Shootdown of JAAF Fiat BR 20 0ver Buka Nov 43?
 

On 8 November 1943, Lt. Eddie Marsh of VF-17, flying an F4U, claimed a Ruth -- a transport version of a Fiat BR 20 Type one JAAF bomber -- shot down over the airfield at Buka.

How widespread was the Japanese use of their limited number of these aircraft as transports in the Bougainvlle/Solomons area? A mis-identfication of a Mitsubishi G3M Nell seems a possibility.

Just finished reading Lee Cook, DIRTY EDDIE'S WAR, based on Marsh's letters, logbooks and diary.

Re: Shootdown of JAAF Fiat BR 20 0ver Buka Nov 43?
 

Hello David,

This actually sounds like a 14 sentai Mitsubishi Ki-21,which I guess somewhat resembles a Fiat BR.20.Failing this one of the standard JAAF transports with perhaps the Ki-57 looking most like a Ruth.

Were any Japanese BR.20 still around as late as November 1943? Perhaps,if at all, in the home Islands,but New Guinea sounds like misidentification.

Regards,

Clint

Re: Shootdown of JAAF Fiat BR 20 0ver Buka Nov 43?
 

Clint the BR20 had twin tails, Sally and Topsy had single; the Fiats were in 12th and 98th Sentais from 1938 with a total of 72. They were operating in Manchuria and China from Dec. 1938 to Feb. 1939; losses were so heavy the 60th had to replace them ( with Ki.21s).
The 12 resumed limited ops in June 1939 with 12 Fiats but was withdrawn a few weeks later. Replaced by Sallys as had the 98th been.
A few of the survivors were seen on Formosa in 1943 so it's possible at least one made it to N. Guinea but March's claim is very specific as to type and would he know about BR20s ?
Nick

Re: Shootdown of JAAF Fiat BR 20 0ver Buka Nov 43?
 

https://www.aviationmegastore.com/im...a/183209_0.jpg


This release is pending in the sporadic Arawasi series. May contain some information relevant to the current query.

Re: Shootdown of JAAF Fiat BR 20 0ver Buka Nov 43?
 

Nick,


You're correct of course about the twin tails on the BR.20. I was just looking at JAAF aircraft known to have been in New Guinea. I had assumed possibly wrongly,that Eddie Marsh had picked the BR.20 from an aircraft identity guide.The US wrongly assuming that the BR.20 was in more widespread use than reality.



I don't wish to hijack the thread but,the BR.20s you mention on Formosa. Who operated them?


Regards,


Clint

Re: Shootdown of JAAF Fiat BR 20 0ver Buka Nov 43?
 

Hi Clint. According to " Aviationofjapan.com" they were photographed at Shinchiku on Formosa during a strike by Fourteenth AF on 25 Nov. 1943; it suggests they may have been "decoys" for AA, a common Jap tactic.

The mission was by B-25s, P-38s and P-51As from Suichwan.

"IMPACT" magazine has a description of this mission; 81 planes on the field, of which 25 bombers, one fighter and a transport were destroyed, plus 15 shot down ( some on field were "Nells").
Nick

Re: Shootdown of JAAF Fiat BR 20 0ver Buka Nov 43?
 

Forgot to mention re. March's claims; Have a note here that he shot down 2 in Jan. 1944 with VF17 (F4U) plus 3 with VF6 in Aug. 1942 land-based in the Solomons (F4F).
Kent would know more I'm sure.

David are we talking about the same VF17 pilot here? March's nickname was "Dirty Eddie" but was there an "Eddie Marsh" ?

Nick

Re: Shootdown of JAAF Fiat BR 20 0ver Buka Nov 43?
 

According to Frank Olynyk Lt Harry Andrew March Jr together with Lt.Cdr. John Thomas Blackburn, both from VF-17, claimed a Ruth at 07.10H over Buka Airfield.

It looks like March was never credited with anything, but Blackburn took the full honor of that claim.

Frank spells March with "ch" in all places in his claims list, so probably a correct spelling.

Again as per Frank Olynyk, March made five claims but only received credit for four
7 Aug 1942 VF-6 type "DB"
24 Aug 1942 VF-6 type Mitsubishi 97
8 Nov 1943 VF-17 type "Ruth" (claim denied)
28 Jan 1944 VF-17 type 2 x "Zeke"

Cheers
Stig

Re: Shootdown of JAAF Fiat BR 20 0ver Buka Nov 43?
 

Stig,

Here is what Blackburn says about it: "A light transport plane was in the traffic pattern over Buka, turning on final approach. Dirty Eddie and I fired at the same instant at about 200 yards; we didn't even have to pull up in order to clear the flaming wreckage....Dirty Eddie and I took aim at the fifty-man reception committee still in parade formation for the newly deceased dignitary aboard the flamed transport".

On the face of it a shared kill, but different squadrons had different methods of dealing with this. Perhaps they cut cards or rolled a dice to decide the claim?

Re: Shootdown of JAAF Fiat BR 20 0ver Buka Nov 43?
 

See the recent book by Lee Cook titled Dirty Eddie's War.

It seems to me at the time of the shootdown of the Ruth, that both March and Blackburn were considered to have shared the claim, and each was awarded one full credit. This appears to be a holdover from World War I, when pilots who shared a claim were given full credit. I published an extensive list of US Navy and Marine Corps aces in the 1941-43 time period in the Bulletin of the American Fighter Aces Association of the scores of aces with shared victories, as published at the end of the war, and as currently calculated by the AFAA. A handful of names fall off the list of aces if they do not receive full credit for shared victories. One must remember that the US Navy (and therefore the USMC) does not have an Official Policy about aces and their scores. Although I have seen contemporary WW2 announcements of USMC aces being declared Marine Corps Aces. I would also mention that there was the concept of an "assist", for which I have never found a definition, which apparently was considered to be a half-credit. Flatley I think is the only one considered to be an ace by virtue of his Navy Cross citation at Coral Sea for five assists.

Enjoy!

Frank.