crash location 51 Sqn Halifax HR852, 11-12 June 1943?
 

Dear all,

Who can help me with any info on the crash location of 51 Squadron Halifax HR852, which was lost to Flak on the 11-12 June 1943 Düsseldorf raid? The complete crew of eight (including two RCAF and one USAAF crew members)were taken PoW.

Cheers, Theo

Re: crash location 51 Sqn Halifax HR852, 11-12 June 1943?
 

Hello Theo,
I see that this question has not yet been resolved, your post on the RAF Commands Forum, circa 2014 had a nil responce.
I fully expect that you have done your research thoroughly.
So just to perhaps refresh memories.
In all 16 Halifax bombers were lost.

Tony Woods file for this night.
11 Halifax claims were claimed.
Ofw. Reinhard Kollak - 1./NJG1 - 00.41
Maj. Werner Streib - Stab1./NJG1 - 01.05 ( Roermond), Netherlands.
Hptm. Siegfried Wandam - 1./NJG1 - 01.18.
Maj. Werner Streib - 1./NJG1 - 01.20 - (Rheinberg), Germany. [JD117 ? ].
Hptm. Manfred Meurer - 3./NJG1 - 01.40 ( Zutphen), Netherlands.
Oblt. Eckart-Wilhelm von Bonin - 6./NJG1 - 01…47. [DT805 - Op: Düsseldorf ?].
Only. Eckart-Wilhelm von Bonin - 6./NJG1 - 01.47. [ JD168 ?].
Oblt. Walter Barte - 4./NJG1 - 01.52.[ DK170 ?].
Hptm. Manfried Meurer - 3./NJG1 - 01.55 - [JD143 ? - Flak ?] - Germany.
Maj. Werner Streib - Stab1./NJG1 - 01.55 - [ HR719 ?] - Netherlands.
Maj. Werner Streib - 1./NJG1 - 02.22 - [W7932 ?] - Netherlands.
Lt. Werner Baake - 1./NJG1 - 02.43 - [JB785 - Op: Düsseldorf ?] - Netherlands.


DT742 - Ditched.
HR797 - Flak, Ditched.

DG406 - Op: SOE - LWT.

HR788 - Oosterschelde, Holand.
DK200 - Scherlebeck,Germany.
HR684 - Voerde, Germany.
JB972 - Flak - Krefeld, Germany.
HR852 - Flak ?

There would usually be an MACR for any American serviceman lost, but as he was pow, then as far as RAF were concerned he was not "lost" so the Americans would not perhaps have been made aware of his circumstances ?

All for now
Apologies in advance for any typo/spelling errors :)
Alex

Re: crash location 51 Sqn Halifax HR852, 11-12 June 1943?
 

Hello,

For Theo's latest research on the losses of 11/12 June 1943, I advise members to consult the following:

Nachtjagd Combat Archive A comprehensive operational history of the German night fighter force on all fronts and an analysis of all claims including Flak units against RAF Bomber Command - 1943 - Part One -1st January - 22nd June.
Boiten,Theo
Walton-on-Thames:Red Kite,2018.
pp.111-15

Col.

Re: crash location 51 Sqn Halifax HR852, 11-12 June 1943?
 

Hello Col,
Are you saying that the answer could be in a book by Theo ?
If so I cannot understand why he is asking the question ?

As an extra,
Re: F/O. D.S.Roberts USAAF. Pow.
I could only find a F/O. Braxton S. Roberts, T-190800 - USAAC, POW date 12 June 1943.
So I wonder if the "D" was a mistake ?
Will look for Braxton's a/c later today.
05.15 hrs here
Good night
Alex

Re: crash location 51 Sqn Halifax HR852, 11-12 June 1943?
 

Hello,

1/ No!
Professor Boiten does not mention the fate of/nor location of the crash site of No.51 Sqn Halifax HR852. In fact, he doesn't specifically mention it at all. Hence his query! He does include, as accurate as is possible at the present, an account of known Nachtjagd and Flak claims over BC aircraft for 11/12 June 1943.

A much more productive area for further research, might be the POW Questionnaires of the RAF/RCAF members of the crew of Halifax HR852.

Col.

Re: crash location 51 Sqn Halifax HR852, 11-12 June 1943?
 

Alex appears to be correct in tracing Braxton as B S Roberts. See https://aad.archives.gov/aad/record-...,109612,109696

Hopefully the Liberation Questionnaires may give better location of the crash site.

Re: crash location 51 Sqn Halifax HR852, 11-12 June 1943?
 

Hello all,
Thanks for the clarification Col, now I understand your comment.
And YES, in Henk's list he has Braxton S. Roberts - F/O ( co-pilot) T-190800.
It goes with the NARA pow detail in the link ICare provided.

So the initial "D" is incorrect in Chorley's BCL vol 4.
Will look for additions/corrections in the later vols.

All the best
Alex

Re: crash location 51 Sqn Halifax HR852, 11-12 June 1943?
 

Braxton's presence as second pilot would also explain the 8 man crew, with him being aboard to gain experience and evaluate Bomber Commands tactics.
Doesn't help with crash location as yet, but for all to be PoW's including the pilot might infer a crash landing rather than an uncontrolled descent.
The absence of any eyewitnesses from Occupied territories might also indicate the crash was "somewhere" in Germany, rather than France, Belgium, Holland etc.
All just supposition though.

Re: crash location 51 Sqn Halifax HR852, 11-12 June 1943?
 

Thanks for all your much appreciated replies. I will indeed try and obtain the POW Questionnaires of the RAF and RCAF members of the crew of Halifax HR852. This will hopefully help in finding the (approx) crash location of the aircraft.


Cheers, Theo

Re: crash location 51 Sqn Halifax HR852, 11-12 June 1943?
 

A newspaper story on Braxton Roberts. The story starts halfway down the first column, "Cape Soldier is Liberated......"

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/20903485/

I think he may have been shot down not on his first mission "with" the AAF but perhaps on his "final" mission with the RAF/RCAF. He may have just transferred to the AAF but had not yet been assigned or moved to a U.S. unit.

Re: crash location 51 Sqn Halifax HR852, 11-12 June 1943?
 

Hello Rolland,
Many thanks for the newspaper cutting.
What are/were the chances of the twin being in the Army unit that freed the pow camp he was in ?
Thousands to one I bet.
I looked for an MACR but was unsuccessful.
Have you tried, you are much better at finding information than I.
Thanks
Alex

Re: crash location 51 Sqn Halifax HR852, 11-12 June 1943?
 

Alex, there would not be a MACR. This was not a AAF plane nor an AAF unit operating the plane.

Re: crash location 51 Sqn Halifax HR852, 11-12 June 1943?
 

Hello Rolland,
Thanks for the reply.
There are MACR's that involved Halifax and Lancaster's , for example Lancaster DV308, MACR9619 and Halifax LW427 MACR 8712, just to name two.
Alex

Re: crash location 51 Sqn Halifax HR852, 11-12 June 1943?
 

Alex, in both examples you list, the Army Air Force members were on detached service (DS) from a parent USAAF unit and the parent unit did the MACR. So the AAF did do MACRs in some circumstances involving RAF planes and crews. Thanks for the correction. I am thinking that in Roberts case, he was not yet officially in any AAF unit, so there was no "parent" unit to take-on the responsibility.

A little on Ray Jay Gile, involved in MACR 8712.

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Gile-59

Re: crash location 51 Sqn Halifax HR852, 11-12 June 1943?
 

Hello Rolland,
I would agree that it may have been due to him not yet been allocated to a specific U S Unit .
Many thanks for the other link, it may well be helpful to any future request.
All the best
Alex

Re: crash location 51 Sqn Halifax HR852, 11-12 June 1943?
 

Hi Alex,

Just read in this thread that there's a MACR for 420 Squadron Halifax LW427 (MACR 8712), lost on 24-25 February 1944. Do you have this MACR (I'm trying to establish the exact time when this aircraft was shot down, hope that the MACR gives these details).

Cheers and thanks, Theo

Re: crash location 51 Sqn Halifax HR852, 11-12 June 1943?
 

Theo,
Last known time and location of Halifax III LW427/C is given as 1815 at Tholthorpe, which was the place of departure. Target Schweinfurt. Cause is given as "Cause unknown. 1 unidentified aircraft seen to crash over target and explode." Pilot F/O Henry Maynard Long. Gile was navigator. Intended course out and back is given; do you need that?

And that is it, which doesn't tell you the location of the crash, other than Schweinfurt.

Enjoy!

Frank.

Re: crash location 51 Sqn Halifax HR852, 11-12 June 1943?
 

Hello and good evening Frank,

Thanks for sharing these details; regrettably the MACR does not state a time of loss, which is the missing link that I'm after ..

Cheers, Theo

Re: crash location 51 Sqn Halifax HR852, 11-12 June 1943?
 

In the RCAF casualty file, LW-427 came down at Ostelsheim

Richard

Re: crash location 51 Sqn Halifax HR852, 11-12 June 1943?
 

Thanks Richard -I have the details from the RCAF casualty files, but failed to find a firm match to a German night fighter claim.

Cheers, Theo