Ivan Shamanov
 

Hello,

Ivan Shamanov is a less well-known Soviet ace credited with 8 kills.
Did he score them in the Douglas A-20 or rather in the Ilyushin Il-4 ?

Michael

Re: Ivan Shamanov
 

Hi Michael,
Ivan Gavrilovic Shamanov (HSU) have not flown on the aircraft A-20G. Only DB-3F and IL-4. He had eight claims on the sinking ship. In memoirs, I have seen only one case about a downed enemy aircraft, but the documents about this unknown. If there were cases, then it is a merit gunner.
Regards,
Kirill

Re: Ivan Shamanov
 

Hello Kirill,

are you sure ?
In "Soviet Lend-Lease Fighter Aces of WW2" by Mellinger, Shamanov is associated with the A-20.
Also the A-20 is depicted on the Shamanov website, which I cannot read, because I can't speak Russian :-(
http://airaces.narod.ru/all14/shamanov.htm

Have a nice weekend,

Michael

Re: Ivan Shamanov
 

Hi Michael,
Ivan G. Shamanov from the spring of 1943, he served in the "Third Red Banner squadron" of 1 GMTAP. Was the commander of air flight, and then became commander of the squadron (at least until the end of 1944).
A "Third red banner squadron" used Il-4 to the end of the war. From the end of 1944, the Il-4 was used as a "night-miner".
In the summer of 1942, and 29.09.1942, 30.09.1942, 26.01.1943 and 13.04.1943 Ivan G. Shamanov successfully bombed the enemy airfields. Perhaps the planes were destroyed on the ground?
The only data about the downed plane is here: http://blokada.otrok.ru/biogr.php?l=25&n=1aig&t=1
But it's not the documents.

I think Ivan Shamanov until the end of the war was flown on the Il-4. He had a lot of experience in night flying (bombing, mining and torpedoing ships), but I don't think he's in the last months of the war (when he was an instructor pilot) went to be retrained on the new aircraft, which had a different tactic of use (tactical air flight "torpedo bomber" + "skip-bomber").
Part A-20G in 1 GMTAP converted into torpedo bombers (removed the nose guns (except one) and made the cabin of the Navigator). The other A-20G was used for skip-bombing.

Best regards,
Kirill

Re: Ivan Shamanov
 

Hi Kirill,

very intresting.
Can you confirm Mellinger's statement (p84) that "a handful of pilots attained ace status in the A-20" ?

Have a nice evening,

Michael

Re: Ivan Shamanov
 

...I'm still intrested in the planes (Il-4?) in which Shamanov scored or in any A-20 aces.

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Ivan Shamanov
 

Good morning Kirill,

can we say that Ivan Shamanov most probably flew an Il-4 for his eight kills ?
(That would be the second-most kills in the type after Stepan Kretov's 10 or 12.)

Have a nice weekend,

Michael

Re: Ivan Shamanov
 

Hi Michael,
I think that Ivan G. Shamanov flew to combat missions only on the types DB-3f and IL-4.
Only on this type of aircraft the pilot does not control the weapon.

In Russia, the pilots of the bombers did not become aces for the downed enemy aircraft. Only conditionally - as the commander of the crew.

С уважением,
Kirill

Re: Ivan Shamanov
 

Hello Kirill,

thanks for your answer.
Mellinger writes in "Soviet Lend-Lease Fighter Aces of World War2" that "a handful of pilots attained ace status in the A-20" ?
Is this a hoax ?

Have a nice weekend,

Michael

Re: Ivan Shamanov
 

Hi Michael,
In Russia, the status of the ace is rather an unofficial title for dashing pilots (daredevil pilot). The bomber pilots were also extraordinary people and could have high merits.
Such pilots on the A-20 was not "handful".
If we consider pilots whose crews shot down more than five aircraft, then there were not enough of them. But the bomber pilots as a rule had no task to shoot down other people's aircraft.
There were only three regiments of bombers that carried out the task of combating other aircraft.
Best regards,
Kirill

Re: Ivan Shamanov
 

Michael, you can easily translate any page (as I just did with the link you provided) - if you open the page in Google Chrome, right-click on the page and click Translate and it will (should!) translate the page into the language set as default on your computer
Peter

Re: Ivan Shamanov
 

Good evening Kirill,

which three regiments do you mean ?

Michael

Re: Ivan Shamanov
 

Michael, good morning.
111, 112, 113 AP NOB DD (night hunters-blockers) - 1943-1944.
But these are not fighters - this is an analogue of the "intruders" of the RAF.
Best regards,
Kirill

Re: Ivan Shamanov
 

Good evening Kirill,

Soviet intruders ?
What were they flying ? Polikarpov U-2's ?
;-)

Michael

Re: Ivan Shamanov
 

U-2? Come on... ;-) They flew B-25 Mitchell and A-20G Boston gunships and claimed several night victories against eg. Me 110G, Do 217N? night-fighters. Later unit names and actions are better known as 26 & 27 GvAP NOB DD ... (Some of their Bostons were: 42-53627, 42-53677, 42-53722, 42-53734, 42-53739, 42-53748, 42-53897, 42-54258, etc.) They mainly blocked/disabled the enemy night-fighter airfields with their 20 mm cannon fire and bombs during soviet night raids for the safety of their IL-4, Li-2 bombers.

Re: Ivan Shamanov
 

Michael,
There were also two regiments of long-range night fighters on A-20G aircraft (they were equipped with Soviet radar systems). But their military successes were insignificant - only in 1945 they made a significant contribution to the disruption of the air bridge to the surrounded Breslau.
It's 56 IAD (45 APON and 173 APON).
After the war, the A-20G was returned to the Americans (without radar) and the regiments were armed with a fighter version of the Tu-2.
Kirill

Re: Ivan Shamanov
 

Good morning Kirill & Gabor,

very interesting.
I assume no aces were generated during these activities ?

Michael

Re: Ivan Shamanov
 

Perhaps most famous (B-25, then) A-20G night fighter, Gv.Maj. Nikita Andreevich Krapiva (HSU) of 27 GvAP NOB DD had several night kills. Not sure if ground kills were added to their toll as their main role was to block/disable NJG airfield traffic at night, during nearby soviet air raids with their radar equipped gunships. They used radar to catch enemy night fighters in the dark and destroyed them with deadly and concentrated fire power of their 4 x 20 mm nose cannon compartment, or 6 x 12.7 mm machine gun fire.

Re: Ivan Shamanov
 

Soviet intruder A-20Gs of 27 GvAP NOB DD, prepared for a night mission in 1944. Note unit's lightning mark and the 4 nose cannons. Usually 6-8 A-20s blocked the nearby NJG airfields during the night attacks of the soviet IL-4, Li-2 bombers.

Re: Ivan Shamanov
 

Soviet mission entry sample for the Gv.Lt. Ponomarenko crew (27 GvAP NOB DD, A-20G, S/N: 42-53748) on Belostov airfield in the night of July 8/9, 1944. (Soviet A-20G night intruders had a crew of 3, while standard daylight A-20 bombers had a crew of 4 -, a bombardier/navigator in the nose instead of the cannon compartment.)

Re: Ivan Shamanov
 

Good morning Gabor,

have you ever come across a Soviet A-20 pilot credited with 5 or more aerial kills ?

Kind regards,

Michael

Re: Ivan Shamanov
 

Krapiva had at least 5, but I have never been interested in such statistics, so I never researched it deeper.
Gabor

Re: Ivan Shamanov
 

I do. I'm a passionate collector of top-aces-by-plane.
The ace with the most A-20 kills (6) might be the Canadian Gordon Raphael.
Mellinger writes that Ivan Shamanov had 8 kills but doesn't specify how many of these were in the A-20. In another post we agreed that Shamanov more likely flew the Il-4 for his successes. Now I wonder if any Soviet pilot could have surpassed Raphaels record (even despite we know that Soviet bomber pilots weren't actually credited with the kills of their crew).

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Ivan Shamanov
 

Only what is in the award documents:

The crew of Krapiva-Gorbunov-Kostyushin-Kutsai-Kirilenko (B-25C):
13.06.1943 - on B-25C (13 GwAP DD) fired 6 aircraft that came in for landing. 1 shot down Kostyushin, 1 damaged (ignited the engine - did not observe the drop, but it's as shot down) Kirilenko.

27 GwAP DD (on A-20G-3) - the crew of Krapiva-Kostyushin/???/Kulbatskiy-Kutsay:
18.06.1944 - blocking of the airfield Slonim - crept into the tail to Me-109 and knocked him down.
27/28.06.1944 - blocking of the airfield Baranovichi (tests of the cannon-machine-gun installation - AKAB) from the same approach two planes on the ground were destroyed.
14-15.07.1944 - Kostyushin died of wounds
24-25.07.1944 - blocking the airfield Petrovgrad (Yugoslavia).
On the return route attacked Me-109, which was shot down by the navigator (???).
16-17.09.1944 - blocking the airfield Budapesht. Shot down the plane Me-109 in the tail.
19.09.1944 - blocking the airfield Vats (35 km N Budapesht).
On the return route attacked Me-109, which was shot down by navigator major Kulbatskiy.

Although officially on the account of Krapiva only three planes shot down personally (in the documents found there are two of them).
Kutsai also shot Me-109 on 05/08/1941 - when he flew to the SB.

Re: Ivan Shamanov
 

Kirche,
In addition to this, Krapiva also had one kill on Sept. 19/20, 1944 as well from other TsAMO docs, the verified German loss is also known in details. They had another kill in Nov., 1944.

Re: Ivan Shamanov
 

Hello Gabor,

the kill that you mentioned for Sept. 19/20, 1944: is it the same that Kirill indicated for 19.09.1944 ?

Have a nice weekend,

Michael

Re: Ivan Shamanov
 

Perhaps, but night missions are sometimes very confusing, like the 19th is 18/19, or 19/20? Cheers,
Gabor

Re: Ivan Shamanov
 

Michael & Gabor,
rather, that case from the award Kulbatsky is the one from September 19/20. I was not exactly accurate - the award does not say that the plane was shot down by the navigator. Kulbatsky was the first to notice the Me-109 and told the pilot, and the merit was attributed to the entire crew.
18.09.1944 - the awards include the blocking of the Miskolc airfield and an attack on the highway convoys. Six cars destroyed and delayed the movement.
Kirill

Re: Ivan Shamanov
 

Good afternoon Kirill & Gabor,

very interesting.
Can we provisionally agree on this Krapiva victory log (all shared with his crew)?:

1. 13.06.1943 1 EA on B-25
2. 18.06.1944 1 Me-109 on A-20
3. 24-25.07.1944 1 Me-109 on A-20
4. 16-17.09.1944 1 Me-109 on A-20
5. 19.09.1944 1 Me-109 on A-20
6. Nov 44 1 EA on A-20

Michael

Re: Ivan Shamanov
 

Yeah, but I am a bit sceptical about the EA types. Eg. on 19.09.1944 Krapiva's crew claimed a Bf 109 which was in fact an Me 110 (for 100%), using probably landing lights, being lost in dogfight in the same area - at night. Misidentification of enemy AC was very common even among the soviet daylight fighters, since eg. Hungarian marked Bf 109s were regularly reported as Fw 190s by the soviets, not to mention their claims at night... Also, the Bf 109s weren't common at night either...

Gabor

Re: Ivan Shamanov
 

Good morning Gabor,

you're probably right.
Are there any further A-20 aces known to you ?

Kind regards,

Michael

Re: Ivan Shamanov
 

Nope, - but it does not mean anything.
Cheers,
Gabor

Re: Ivan Shamanov
 

Michael,
06/13/1943 - Crew of Krapiva (on B-25) counted two twin-engined aircraft (Kostyushin and Kirilenko).
Kirill

Re: Ivan Shamanov
 

Good morning Kirill & Gabor,

thanks for the hint.
Have you ever seen a photo of Krapiva ?

Have a nice Friday,

Michael

Re: Ivan Shamanov
 

http://allaces.ru/p/people.php?id=00000004585
http://www.polkmoskva.ru/upload/ft/t...40h615auto.jpg
http://www.polkmoskva.ru/upload/ft/t...40h615auto.jpg
http://www.polkmoskva.ru/upload/ft/t...40h615auto.jpg

Re: Ivan Shamanov
 

Good afternoon Kirill,

hope you had a good weekend.
Thanks a lot for the links to the cool photos.
Somehow my BING web translator doesn't work.
Does the Krapiva biography on allaces.ru say something about his official score ?

All the best to you,

Michael

Re: Ivan Shamanov
 

Good evening,

I'm still interested in the official Krapiva score.
Also in possible Soviet B-25 aces and notable American A-20 pilots.

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Ivan Shamanov
 

Michael,
I wrote earlier the 'requests' list of the crew of Krapiva. He was officially credited only knocked them personally (as a pilot) - 3 claims.
But I have not found information about the downed aircraft in November 1944.
Kirill

Re: Ivan Shamanov
 

Hello Kirill,

hope you're doing fine.

thus, the list of the Krapiva crew kills would look similar to this one, wouldn't it ?

1. 13.06.1943 crew
2. 13.06.1943 crew
3. 18.06.1944 Krapiva
4. 24-25.07.1944 crew
5. 16-17.09.1944 Krapiva
6. 19.09.1944 Krapiva+crew
7. Nov 44 ???

Kind regards,

Michael

Re: Ivan Shamanov
 

Michael Hi,
I think so:
13.06.1943 crew - Kostyushin
13.06.1943 crew - Kirilenko
18.06.1944 Krapiva (airfield Slonim) - one
27/28.06.1944 - two planes on the ground (not counted as aerial victories)
24-25.07.1944 crew - navigator (?).
16-17.09.1944 Krapiva (airfield Budapesht) - two
19.09.1944 crew - Kulbatskiy
?? Nov 1944 – Krapiva (?) – three (?)

Kirill