Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

Hello all,
can somebody tell me if the German aerial victories against the Wellington formations are somewhere documented with place, time etc ?

Where can we find the detailed (and all!) British losses of this raid ?

Thanks and best regards,
Marius

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

I believe that a book has been written on this plus numerous articles. RAF losses are fully detailed in a Bill Chorley's Bomber Command Losses Vol 1

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

In Chorkey`s Bomber Command Losses Vol.1 you will find 12 losses only. But what about the rest ? Further 3 or even 6 aircraft crashed on return to England.
Who published the complete toll of losses ?

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

"But what about the rest ? Further 3 or even 6 aircraft crashed on return to England."

Where does this information comes from?

Junker

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

For example:

J.Prien - Geschichte des Jagdgeschwaders 77 Teil 1, page 133.
12 failed to return + 8 or more crashed/forcelanded.

C.Shores - Fledgling Eagles, page 140.
11+1 + 6 more crashed/forcelanded reaching English coast.

Regards,

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

Sadly both are secondary sources. Priens JG 77 have another unsourced claim, concerning the 13 august 1940 attack on Aalborg. Claiming that twice the number attacked, wich is simply untrue!

Junker

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

Nevertheless I think the authors used relevant sources...
By the way, it is most propable the RAF lost much more aircraft crashed or forcelanded on England soil then only the 12 which completely failed to return - means crashed into the North Sea.

I don`t think there is something untrue done by above authors. More, the British point of view seems to be much problematic even now, 75 years after the battle.
I only wrote about the losses of Squadrons 9,37,38 & 149 passing Heligoland. But it is sure pilots of 2./ZG 76 (among others) attacked the second formation of Wellingtons, which - believing some authors - was not existent.(!?)

Regards,

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

Aircraft force-landed not always means 'aircraft crash-landed' on return to base or elswere. It also means that aircraft not returned to the aerodrome, which was the unit's base, and landed on another airfield due to fuel situation, weather, battle damage, whatewer reason.

Speaking of 18 December 1939 I have data only for 9 Sqn. Of nine aircraft from this unit participating, only two returned to base at Honington. Five aircraft of the unit were lost in this operation. Two of their Wellingtons were damaged in aerial combat, one landed on return at North Coates and another landed at Sutton Bridge, the latter aircraft with two wounded crewmen aboard. These two aircraft are certainly amongst those, mentioned by Shores and Prien

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

Suggest people read Robin Holmes's "The Battle Of Heligoland Bight" All requested details contained therein....
BW

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

Well, four Squadrons flew in along Heligoland with 22 aircraft. Besides the 9 Sqd it is still possible several Wellingtons did not return to their bases as mean Shores &r Prien.

Much more interesting is the second formation with similar strenght of Wellingtons which flew partially over ground from the west appr. half an hour later. I am still waiting for the Holme`s book. But I heard he wrote about the Heligoland formation only. (?)

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

Jörn,

you are of course right that in JG 77 Vol 1 - published in 1992 - based on German sources the August 13th, 1940, attack on Aalborg was described along the lines of the German reports which recorded an attack of 23 Blenheims as opposed to the 11 of 82 Sqn. which actually made it to Aalborg. Based on that number the Luftwaffe had no problems to confirm 15 claims of 5./JG 77. As a matter of fact 11 out of 11 Blenheims which reached their target were shot down and in the course of this melé there was some over-claiming on the part of 5./JG 77.

This has however been corrected in JFV Vol. 3, p.13 ( publ. in 2000 ), and is completely set straight in the substantially revised JG 77 unit history I'm working on as a side-line to the JFV series.

As for the actual RAF losses on December 18th, 1939, this is a subject that has yet to be finally addressed; the RAF attack and the German response fill almost a dozen pages in the revised JG 77 manuscript, based definitely not on secondary sources, and leaving a number of questions that have yet to be answered. It's simply too much to just pack in a short post here. JG 77 Vol. 1 is certainly outdated in many aspects, but the coverage of December 18th, 1939, still has its merits.

Regards

Jochen Prien

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

The "second formation" seems to have been seen by Olt. Berthold Jung from 5./JG 77. In a wartime account he stated about 16 bombers (12 + 4). This couldn`t have been the Helgoland formations.
Otherwise this strenght of bombers is confirmed by Luftlagebericht Nr.119 - 22 aircraft flying east (6 of them above ground at Norden to Wangerooge).

What I do not understand is the changed time of Jung`s unconfirmed victory. In JFV Teil 2 (p.474) 14.35 hours, in the older Geschichte des Jagdgeschwaders 77 Teil 1 & Teil 4 14.50 hours. 15 minutes is a lot of time.
I mean 14.50 hours is more likely. So the older book about the JG 77 has indeed its merits.

A question especially to our British readers. Where were published the losses of OTU/OCU aircraft on this 18.12.1939?

Regards,

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

Only operational Sqns took part

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

So what about the Squadrons 99, 115, 148, 214 & 215 ?
Surely enough to build a second formation of 22 Wellingtons...

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

There was no operational flying by any of these squadrons on 18 December 1939

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

Source for that ???

Thanks,

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

Without looking at Chorley & the book on 18 Dec 39 and looking at my notes written 20+ years ago for survivors of I/ZG 76:

9 Sqn took off at 0900 hrs with 9 ac. 5 were shot down (one came down off the English coast at 1530 hrs & crew were rescued) and 2 returned damaged (one landing at Sutton Bridge 1600 hrs, the other at North Coates)
37 Sqn took off around 0940 hrs with 6 ac. 5 were shot down. Survivor landed 1540 hrs
149 Sqn took off around 0927 hrs with 9 ac. Two RTB landing 1325 hrs. 2 were lost (one crashing in target area 1410 hrs, the other ditching 40-60 miles off Cromer 1505 hrs)

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

ORB's of squadrons mentioned

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

Thanks Andrei, but are you sure? For example Prien wrote something about the 148 Sqd, but without any details.

Chris,
149 Sqd with 9 (?) aircraft ? According to Shores only 6 (N2984,N2962,N2961,N2960,N2866,N2980).
Furthermore Shores means some aircraft did not land in England but have crashed:
9 Sqd - 1 crashed cat 3, 1 force-landed cat 2
37 Sqd - 1 crash-landed cat 3
149 Sqd - 3 crashed cat 2

How can arise such big differences?

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

Marius, yes, I'm absolutely sure.

It would be interesting to know what exactly Prien stated about participation of 148 Sqn, because at the time it was a Groop Pool Squadron, some sort of OTU into which that formation of the squadron evolved (15 OTU).

The unit had only three entries for December 1939 in its diary, these conserning moves and Christmas leave for personnel

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

9 Sqn-N2873 starboard wing to rear mid cell of wing badly shot up. Fire gone out. Ac badly peppered
9 Sqn N2871 right tank holed rudder partially jammed
37 Sqn-N2903 only survivor
149 Sqn-N2960, N2892, N2962, N2984, N2866, N2894, N2980, N2943, N2961. N2984 & N2894 RTB with engine problems
Sources-F540/541

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

Formation 1 - Section 1

N2960 W/C Kellett - Landed Mildenhall (149) - repaired
N2892 F/O Turner - Landed Mildenhall (149)
N2962 F/O Spiers - shot down

Formation 1 - Section 2

N2984 F/L Duguid - Early return engine trouble (149)
N2866 F/O Riddlesworth - Landed Mildenhall (149) - repaired
N2894 F/S Kelly - Early return with N2984 (149)

Formation 2 - Section 1

N2980 S/L Harris - Landed Coltishall (149) - repaired
N2943 F/O Bulloch - Landed Mildenhall (149)
N2961 F/O Briden - Ditched off Cromer Knoll (149)

Formation 2 - Section 2

N2964 - F/L Grant - Landed Honington (9)
N2981 - Sgt Purdy - Landed Honington (9)
N2983 - Sgt Ramshaw - Ditched 100m off Wash (9)

Formation 3 - Section 1

N2872 S/L Guthrie - Shot down (9)
N2871 F/O Macrae - Landed North Coates (9) - repaired
N2873 Sgt Petts - Landed Sutton Bridge (9) - repaired

Formation 3 Section 2

N2941 F/O Allison - Shot Down (9)
N2940 P/O Lines - Shot Down (9)
N2939 F/O Challes - Shot Down (9)

Formation 4

N2904 S/L Hue-Williams - Shot Down (37)
N2903 F/O Lemon - Landed Feltwell (37) - repaired
N2888 F/O Wimberley - Shot Down (37)
N2889 F/O Lewis - Shot Down (37)
N2935 F/O Thompson - Shot Down (37)
N2936 Sgt Ruse - Shot Down (37)


9 Sqn 9 took off, five lost, two repaired
37 Sqn 6 took off, five lost, one repaired
149 Sqn 9 took off, two returned early, two lost, three repaired

Repaired would indicate a reasonably significant amount of damage.

38 Sqn also did a sea sweep, nothing seen all landed safely

N2908 F/O MacFadden (38)
N2909 F/O Hopkins (38)
N2952 Sgt Sayers (38)

Source The Battle of Heligoland Bight 1939 (Robin Holmes)

I have 40 Luftwaffe claims for the day. We would need several more formations of Wellingtons to account for this lot. 12/22 is more than enough, the rest is inexperienced overclaiming

Regards

Martin

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

Many thanks Martin.
It is very interesting indeed. We have now 27 Wellingtons which took of for this mission.

What was the flying order and the direction as the formations left Wilhelmshaven?
First 149,

then 9 and

37 as last formation attacked ?

Regards,

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

I make it 24 with 3 on a separate mission i.e a sea sweep.
I think that what Martin has written gives a good idea of the formation. The 37 Sqn ORB states that they flew in 4 flights in diamond formation with an attack height of 14,000 feet. No mention of direction

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

I have a figure of about 20 RAF airmen rescued by Seedienst He 59s on this day.
Are there any details on this?

Peter

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

Also looking at the German victory list 37 Sqd flew surely nearby Borkum at the end of the whole "Heligoland formation", right? This was at appr. 14.45 hours (see claims of Lt. Lent at Borkum 14.40 & 14.45 hours).
I am wondering what Wellingtons were attacked at 14.45-14.55 hours near Wangerooge, Spiekeroog or Langeoog ? There are several claims as well as other at 15.00 hours achieved by 2./ZG 76 25 km WNW Borkum - it should be the same formation which apparently did not exist... :confused:

Surprisingly the German Luftlagebericht 119 from 19.12.1939 does confirm this "ghost formation" of 22 aircraft at Borkum and Norden at 14.45 as it flew eastwards. If it was so the British official story is only 50% true. Or German documents were reporting science fiction together with pilots from I./ZG 76 & II./JG 77.:rolleyes:

Regards,

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

Hello,

How many of these a/c fell on land? We're trying to do color profiles for the EoE Project of an a/c from each of the three SQ that participated in this raid. I've so far located only three photos of wreckage of one a/c, identified as 37 SQ N2936, apparently flown by Sgt Ruse and captioned as SD over Borkum. Were there any other wrecks photographed by the Germans on land after this action?

There is one a/c that participated in this mission, N2980 "R" of 149 SQ, that is being restored at the Brooklands Museum in Weybridge. It was recovered from the waters of Loch Ness after ditching there a year after its Heligoland episode. Does anyone have any photos of this a/c as it appeared in Dec., 1939? I do have the book, "The Battle of Heligoland Bight 1939" by Robin Holmes, which has a photo of the a/c more or less as it appears today as "R" for Robert, but apparently without a SQ code. Other photos of it are on the Brooklands Museum website.

Does anyone have any matching SQ codes to fit with the SN of the a/c listed by Martin that participated in this mission?

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

I have 4 codes for 9 Sqn, all for 37 Sqn & none for 149 Sqn-source F540/541. Didn't Lent & Schumacher's kills crash on land/almost on land?

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

That is an excellent news!

Juha

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

Have you thought that the ghost formation might by the Germans looking at a formation of their own aircraft or alternatively that someone's timings are a bit out?

Having looked at all the RAF ORBs there really is no one else from the RAF out there. A quick check of the CWGC site shows that the dead are all accounted for, if there were lots of additional losses then they would show up there

Regards

Martin

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

Martin,
there was not so big German close formation of fighters in the air. The hostile aircraft were recognized as Wellingtons. The timing of victories, sure, there could be some inaccuracies, mistakes etc - maybe 3-4.
But I count some 11-13 (!!!) confirmed victories achieved apparently against the "ghost formation". On the other hand between 14.45-15.06 there wasn`t so much more to shoot down from the Helgoland formation. And at the time these bombers were far, far away from German Bight. They couldn`t stay for 45 minutes at Wangerooge or Borkum, right?

Maybe something wasn`t documented or even deleted after the battle ?:confused:

Regards,

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

I concur with Martin-fog of war?; bottom line one RAF attack and that was it

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

Marius,

One thing to bear in mind is that overclaiming occurred on all sides during the war, whether innocently or otherwise. Check out 74 Squadron's claims for 11th August 1940, or ZG 26 claims for 18th August 1940, or 242 Squadron during their 'Big Wing' operations towards the end of the Battle of Britain. All of these were way off the scale.

I would suggest that is what you are seeing for 18.12.1939 along the lines of what Chris Goss has suggested and stated in the previous post to this one.

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

Sure, overclamimg happends from time to time. But we should not generalize. For example I./ZG 76 made very trustworthy claims in Poland a few weeks earlier - without any overclaiming. Why should they do this suddenly on 18.12.1939 ?
As I suppose a Wellington Mk.I flew appr. 5 km per minute, means appr. 25 km in 5 minutes. How could the Wellingtons have been near Wangerooge at 14.20, 14.40 and again at 14.55 ???

Gentlemen apparently our well known formation of 22 Wellingtons flew circles between Wilhelmshaven, Heligoland and Borkum again and again, for appr. full 50-60 minutes (250-300 km under German attack). At appr. 15 hours the rest of them left Nordsee and headed for home after every German pilot in the air had his own victory. I understand it was Christmas time very soon...
:)

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

Hello,

The German and British sides of this story are very different. Based upon German sources it would appear that there were a lot more a/c in the sky over Germany that night. However, ample British records have survived and there is apparently no evidence of more a/c being dispatched on this or a similar mission over German that night, nor a/c losses reported, nor crew casualties identified. By now all the war casualties and a/c losses during this part of the war have long been identified, and it just defies all logic that a number of other British losses could have happened that night. Where is the evidence of the British side? Where are the wreckage photos on the German side?

I have to agree that barring further evidence there is no reason to alter the established British account of what happened on their side. The "ghost mission" was just confusion on the German side--part of the fog of war.

Regarding my earlier questions, I've now studied Peter Cornwell's revised British loss records for this mission in detail. We still haven't identified some of the full crew names and crew positions, but I do have all of the a/c codes for the 37 SQ losses, and only one for the 9 SQ: N2939 was apparently WSoH. I would appreciate an email from Chris Goss for any additional codes that he has, or from anyone else for that matter.

Regarding crashes, only one aircraft crashed on land--sort of. The Wellington of Sgt Herbert Ruse apparently ditched in shallow water alongside a beach at high tide, and later at low tide was full stranded on the beach. Several of the crew were captured and the a/c subsequently burned out:

According to the revised EoE British Loss DB:
18 December 1940: Wellington IA N2936. Shot down by Oberstlt Carl Schumacher (Geschwaderkommodore) of Stab JG1 and ditched and burned out just offshore Borkum (Spiekeroog) Island ca 1.45 p.m. Sergeant T. W. Holley and Corporal F. J. Taylor both killed in fighter attacks, (Pilot) Sergeant H. Ruse, Sergeant T. May, and Leading Aircraftsman H. A. Jones all captured. Aircraft LF*J a write-off. (Weiss)"

Here is one of the three photos I have in the EoE Photo DB for what must be that a/c.

http://ihra.smugmug.com/photos/i-m7n...-m7ncfwt-L.jpg

Another can be found in "The Battle of Heligoland Bight 1939" by Robin Holmes P.8 of the photo section. He identifies it as N2936. Neither Peter Cornwell nor I have found any photo evidence of other crashes on German territory that night.

Does anyone know of any photos of other a/c taken either before being lost or of survivors after the mission that would help in creating color profiles for this mission?

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

Hello Larry,
I am wondering why you are talking about a NIGHT attack. According to German victory times the battle took place between appr. 14.20 - 15.05 hours. In this time a Wellington should fly more than 200 km.
I repeat, it is hard to believe it was just one formation attacked again and again whole the way back to England.

Almost all aircraft felt into the North Sea. No big chance to find more wreckages than N2936 at Borkum.

And something else very interesting for all who hardly believe in a "German Fata Morgana". According to German documents the captured crew stated 52 Wellingtons took part in this mission.

Regards,

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

Marius,

I was mistaken when I said at night. All our loss reports were during the day. Disregard that.

My opinion remains the same. Where are the missing a/c SN or casualty reports? Even if the British concealed some loss information for public morale purposes at the time, this would have come to light by now. All of this kind of info has been in the public records for a very long time. The Wellington a/c numbers and crew casualties would have all come to light by now.

As you well know, PoWs lie all the time. In my opinion, most of the PoWs wouldn't have known such a detail anyway.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

Marius,

Hello there. A couple of things to keep in mind when considering fighter claims:
- The effective range for 20mm cannon fire, means the target aircraft can be as small as the thumb-nail on your hand at full reach away from your face. Under those circumstances, a pilot looking through his gun-sight will see very little else than what he’s focussed on. Another fighter firing at the same target from 200m to his left (or right) will not be necessarily noticed. So two or more fighter pilots could quite sincerely be claiming the same target shot down.
- The more aircraft in the sky, the more likely the chances of overclaiming. Many fighters approaching, many targets being fired at. Pilot A fires at the 2nd aircraft in a vic of target bombers, Pilot B fires at the lead aircraft…..3rd aircraft in target vic catches fire and burns. Both Pilots A and B think they’ve actually hit this aircraft (poor aim, badly harmonised guns, deflection shooting error, any number of reasons). Or have both pilots missed, and Pilot C – unseen by both – has actually hit this target? One shot down – three claim the kill!
- Most of the fighter pilots aren’t going to watch their target crash. It’s generally a quick pass, and reposition for another pass or another target. Especially if there are escorting fighters…the heart and other lower muscles will be contracting fast….adrenalin flowing….time for quick glances only….keep watching your back. No escorts in the case of the Heligoland raid, but the Luftwaffe Jagdfliegers wouldn’t be slouching around….too many more bombers to kill in this target rich environment.
- Was the second ghost formation an hour later than the first? Is it a matter of confusion in records, due to the different time zones?

Food for thought?
…geoff

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

Hello there, everything is possible. But you cannot shoot at the same bomber 30 min long staying at one point. One formation of Wellingtons - as I understand it was one diamond formation of 21 Wellingtons flying away from Wilhelmshaven and attacked by II./JG 77 - is flying in that time appr. 150 km away.

For one example let us look at the island of Borkum;
First kills were made there at 14.40 hours. More at 14.45, 14.50, 15.00, 15.06. Maybe with a few mistaken times and places - this is not possible. It couldn`t have been the same formation of bombers again and again.

What I can imagine with 149, 9 & 37 Sqd`s are 3 or 4 waves, one formation after another with intervals of 10 minutes to each other. This could be an explanation for time expansion of German claims.
But this was not the case. (?)

Regards,

Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939
 

One more mystery.
According to Volkmar Kühn (Der Seenotdienst der deutschen Luftwaffe, Motorbuch 1978, p. 34) several British crews were rescued by seaplanes. Several means no one or two crews but more, I suppose. Any idea who it was ?



Herr Prien,
nobody expects you will give us here a dozen pages or other details to read. But maybe you can help to finish this thread with one short, simple sentence.
Here are my questions: could you find another lost aircraft than of 9/37/149 Sqd ? If yes, could you give us just one example ?

Many thanks and all the best for your coming projects.
Regards,