Re: Fw-190 shot down on 19th of September 1943 over Belgium
 

Sorry for my confusing answer, as told by Leo, everything I said in my post above (#7) happened on 22 September 1943, not on the 19th. I just searched the wrong date... and wondered about the different areas involved (JG 2 claims over Normandy, American reports in Lille area). I now understand better....

Re: Fw-190 shot down on 19th of September 1943 over Belgium
 

Oddly enough the RAF make no claim for Bf109 destroyed on 22 September! Claims are 41 sqn 3-2-1, 308 Sqn 0-0-1, 341 sqn 1-0-2, 416 Sqn 0-0-3, 453 Sqn 1-0-0. All the confirmed kills are Fw190, although 4 damaged claims are made for Bf109.

Intriguingly if the Bf109 claims are upgraded the aces Anthoni Glowacki and Lloyd Chadburn would increase their scores by one and two respectively...if the Fw190 claims are rejected Ray Harries, Maurice Bouguen and Don Smith are reduced by one....

...however as we know this is just being wise after the event.

regards

Keith

Re: Fw-190 shot down on 19th of September 1943 over Belgium
 

Hello Keith,

on September 22, 1943 the RAF claimed 4-2-7 Luftwaffe aircraft.
Again there is no agreement with the German documents.

A Marauder formation of 233rd and 386th BG hit the Evreux-Fauville airfield around 1612 hrs damaging 2 Fw 190 of 10./JG 2 and 1 Bf 109 of 11./JG 2:

Fw 190 A-6 530141 70%
Fw 190 A-6 550539 90%
Bf 109 G-3 16285 80%.

After the attack 32 Fw 190 and 12 Bf 109 of Stab, I. and II./JG 2 encountered the Marauder formation, forced away by the escorting Spitfires.

RAF losses:
Major Egon Mayer of Stab/JG 2 claimed two Spitfires at 1717 hrs and 1720 hrs east of Lisieux.

Luftwaffe losses:
Fw 190 A-6 530318 Fw Heinz Ender 2./JG 2 killed 8 km southeast Conches, 100%
Bf 109 G-6 27056 Fhr Klaus Diekert 12./JG 2 wounded near Acquigny 100%.

Source:
Jagdfliegerverbände Teil 10/IV


Regards
Leo

Re: Fw-190 shot down on 19th of September 1943 over Belgium
 

Sorry Leo, I am a bit confused. I have the JG26 pilot lost on 19 September to 91 Squadron around midday. So three Bf109s lost to enemy fighters in the afternoon of 19 September, two of which were damaged and c/l?

3 fighters lost (on the ground) during the Marauder raid on 22 September 1943? And two fighters shot down by Spitfires during the withdrawal (this would be the encounter with the Digby, Northolt and Westhampnett Wings).

No JG2 fighters damaged in these encounters....? Blimey, the two that were shot down must have been hit by five Westhampnet Wing pilots, two Digby Wing pilots and a Pole from Northolt!

best regards

Keith

Re: Fw-190 shot down on 19th of September 1943 over Belgium
 

Hello Keith,

I have quoted the documented German losses in Western Europe which are contradictory to the Alliied informations.

You are right:

German losses on September 19, 1943 after encounters with Spitfires

1 Bf 109 G-6 of JG 26 at noon
3 Bf 109 G-6 of JG 2 in the afternoon.

German losses on September 22, 1943 (all of JG 2)

1 Bf 109 G-3 and 2 Fw 190 A-6 on the ground during the Marauder raid
1 Bf 109 G-6 and 1 Fw 190 A-6 shot down by Spitfires during the withdrawal.

I am not able to assess the correctness of the British claims according to the Tony Wood list “RAF & US Fighter Commands with annotated text. Issue I
1943”

Kind regards
Leo

Re: Fw-190 shot down on 19th of September 1943 over Belgium
 

Many thanks Leo. As usual with so many Spitfires around there'll be an element of overclaiming but it looks like the RAF claims for three destroyed in the area on 22 September are pretty accurate compared with LW losses. (albeit the addition of "probables" and "damaged" make it less clear).

The victories on the 19th are evidence of underclaiming (very unusual). The RAF only makes claims for two destroyed and three damaged in the afternoon. Although they overclaim in the morning, the Westhampnett Wing are credited with two destroyed and a damaged.

best regards

Keith

Re: Fw-190 shot down on 19th of September 1943 over Belgium
 

Hi, Kristjan,


Unfortunately, what has been neglected in the discussion here is that American bomber gunners' claims are notoriously inflated, sometimes up to 50-fold. They can be very colorful and dramatic, as your quotations were, but are rarely accurate. My database has recorded several instances of specific unit vs unit engagements like these:


November 23, 1942

American Bomber Gunner Claims: 16-2-1 JG2 Losses: 1, Uffz. Theodor Angele (7.), in the ocean


December 20, 1942
American Bomber Gunner Claims: 53-15-8
JG2 Losses (to accidents): 2, Lt. Ambrosius Passer (7.), KIA, crash near Vannes/Meucon, Lt. Fritz Probst (8.), Parachuted, KIA, ran out of gas, ran into a tree, Montebourg, 8 km SE of Valognes


December 30, 1942

Bomber Claims: 29-7-3
JG2 losses: 1,Uffz. Karl Löhse (7.), MIA, in combat, went in around 30 km east of Belle-Ile