Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum

Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/index.php)
-   Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/forumdisplay.php?f=8)
-   -   Walther Dahl EJG2 (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=479)

Roger Gaemperle 9th February 2005 15:59

Walther Dahl EJG2
 
Hello,

I was trying to find information about the exact date when Walter Dahl joined EJG2 but was unable to do so. Also I was unable to find dates for his 9+ victories with EJG2. I was assuming that more information should be known as Walter Dahl survivied the war.

What would be the best source (book) for more information about him?

Thanks & Regards,
Roger Gaemperle

kaki3152 12th February 2005 01:54

Walter Dahl Flugbuch on E-Bay
 
Ya know, his Flugbuch just came up for auction on E-Bay. Would love to get a look at it. Does anyone know who bought the Flugbuch?

Carlos

George Hopp 12th February 2005 02:44

Walter Dahl
 
His book, Rammjager, doesn't mention service with EJG2 at all, except to say that on 27 Mar 45, he, and Oberst Gollob were flying in an Si 204D to visit Heinz Bar's EJG2 in Lechfeld, when they were spotted by a pair of P-51s, and through Gollob's inspired flying managed to elude them. In the afternoon as he test flew an Me 262 some P-47s began straffing the airfiled, and he shot down 2 of them for his 102nd and 103rd victories. Then he says that by April 4th he had his 110th victory, but no further mention of EJG2.
Sorry,
George

kaki3152 12th February 2005 05:32

Walther Dahl's victories in Me-262
 
I have always had a problem with Walter Dahl's victory over P-47s on this date. As far as I know, no P-47 unit reported an encounter with Me-262s on this date.

George Hopp 12th February 2005 06:24

Walther Dahl
 
"Me 262 Combat diary" by Foreman and Harvey makes the same comments as you, and says that the actual day of the combat might be the 25th of March. But, as I said in the note above, the 27th is the date Dahl states in his book.
George

George Hopp 13th February 2005 03:12

Walther Dahl
 
Hmm, what are the chances that the P-47s belonged to units flying out of Italy? Since Heinz Baer claimed 3, and Walter Dahl claimed 2, victories, all relatively close to Lechfeld, and so to ground-based witnesses, I would hesitate to say that these victories were imaginary.
George

Ruy Horta 13th February 2005 11:01

Have any of you at least considered the possibility that the a/c type involved wasn't a P-47?

I'm not writing this because I stand behind the original claims, but it strikes me that these debates often focus on a single type being claimed and that no losses of said type mean that there was no valid claim. Misidentification is so common that types should not be the primary cariable when judging claims.

Biographies vary in accuracy, but in general I find them unreliable when it comes to dates and exact events. Rammjaeger isn't exactly one of those "Flugbuch" type biographies to start with...

FalkeEins 13th February 2005 15:23

Dahl
 
not only that Ruy but (not wishing to appear sexist here) most of the book was put together by his wife..
As George points out, Dahl states that by 4 April he had 110 Abschüsse ..however Dahl also writes that he finished the war with 128 - a figure quoted in just about every bio - in other words he scored nearly 20 victories in just over 3 weeks even though he wasn't flying on operations !!! (he mentions only undertaking a number of Erkundungsflüge - eg 24 April -which resulted in combat )I think we can conclude that a large number of these latter victories were indeed 'imaginary'....

Ruy Horta 13th February 2005 17:46

Imaginary sounds like they are a lie, unless proven to be so I'd prefer the term uncertain. Although Obermaier may have used his biography, a quick scan (without resorting to any primary sources) shows a pattern that is fairly consistent for the last months of the war. Er flog fast bis zum letzten Kriegtag Einsätze, wobei er an der Ostfront 32 russische Flugzeuge abschoß.

What are the chances that some of the US types were actually Soviet types, making identification and verification of claims a little more difficult?

Is it certain that he didn't fly much during those days, is that based on his Flugbuch?

Just asking some questions, for the sake of knowledge, not trtying to push an argument as the forum moderator!

FalkeEins 13th February 2005 17:58

Dahl
 
..well the Flugbuch that was sold only covered the period up to Feb 45..how much combat flying is the Inspekteur der Tagjagd likely to have done..? Not much I doubt..

Ruy Horta 13th February 2005 18:33

Is that an assumption or do you know that as a fact?

Problem is that most of us, and I am guilty as well, assume a lot...

Personally I do not know if an Inspector of Dayfighters during the last months of the Reich could or would want to fly a lot of sorties.

I do not have access to the agenda of Obst. Dahl. The Flugbuch doesn't seem to cover the period either, so that won't give any answers either - primary source answers that is.

Would an Inspector of Dayfighters have a lot of work in those last weeks?

I'd assume that bureaucracy would continue to run its course for a long time, but I do not know Dahl's activity for a fact. Could an aggressive pilot of Dahl's standing continue operational flying if he wanted to, especially during the final months, I think he could.

Note I did not check Rammjäger, or any other material other than Obermaier.

My point is how much are we assuming and how much are we basing comments on what we do know for a fact.

Too be honest I would not be surprised if much of Dahl's late war claiming is proofed to be less than accurate, but as it stand now I could not make any commitment either way.

Certainly not based upon no missing P-47s and his role as Inspector Dayfighters.

Roger Gaemperle 14th February 2005 20:29

Dahl
 
Thank you all for the interesting discussion and the replies to my question. Dahl's Flugbuch stopped in October 44 but had two additional entries in February 45 (not with a combat airplane). There were also no stamps or confirmation of his flights as it can be usually found with other flight logbooks. Perhaps, the reason was that he was the commander and did not need to confirm his own flights? Just a guess. Or could there be any other reason?

Regards,
Roger Gaemperle

George Hopp 14th February 2005 23:18

Walter Dahl
 
The reason Dahl said in his book that this day--27 March 1945--was special to him was because it was his birthday. So, without any evidence to the contrary, I would agree with the date and would also tend to support his victories, because they would probably have been witnessed by knowledgeable people on the ground. And, as I said in another note in the thread, can anyone be certain that these aircraft were not from northern Italy, or be something other than P-47s.

In the last days of the war, what would an Inspector of Fighters do? Possibly, he would be spending a lot of time with units, as he did on March 27th. And, while there he might well have flown sorties with them. From his book, he seems that kind of person.

Your comment, Ruy, about "imaginary victory" being potentially derogatory, was poor wording on my part and I apologize for this.

George


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 10:31.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net