III./JG 77 vs 12th USAAF, 1 Oct 1943
 

I am looking for details of the interception by III./JG 77 of 12AF B-17s + B-24s returning from a raid on Wiener-Neustadt and Steyr on 1 Oct 1943 (base, number and time up, time & location of Feindberührung, claims & losses). Kurt Ubben claimed his last victory in this battle. I'm sure that the info is available in Prien's Jagdgeschwader 77 Band 3; unfortunately, that's the only one of Jochen's books that I don't have (honest!), and I lack the time and funds to search for a copy.

Horrido!

Don Caldwell

Re: III./JG 77 vs 12th USAAF, 1 Oct 1943
 

Hi
There are no details about the engagement on 01 oct 1943. Here is an attemt to transelate what is written.
III/JG77 were up flying protection for transports between Korsika and the Italian mainland, and during the day elements of the gruppe
scrambled against allied bombers, but no further details is known..
One loss, Uffz. Walter Linkmann missing, 7./JG77 Unknown area, Bf109G-6 wnr 140047, white 9+
So - not much help there.. III/JG77 was at Metato on 1.10

Regards
Anders

Re: III./JG 77 vs 12th USAAF, 1 Oct 1943
 

Prien's commentary on III./JG 77 for 25 Sept 43 indicates a victory for Maj. Ubben over a Beaufighter. But, none for 1 Oct 43.

I was going to quote the narrative for 1 Oct 43, by Prien, but Anders beat me to it.

Re: III./JG 77 vs 12th USAAF, 1 Oct 1943
 

Thanks Anders & George -- we're not there yet. The OKL claims list published by Tony Wood lists a B-17 for Kurt Ubben on 1 Oct 43 at PQ 14 Ost S/04 195, i.e., 10km N of Pisa (sort of on track from Austria to Tunisia), at 1155 hours. This is listed in at least one "Aces claims list" on the Web as his last claim, and is the only claim listed for III./JG 77 for the date. If it is not in Prien's JG 77 Band 3, it must be because the claims list was not yet available to him. Prien mentions the battle very briefly in the "Purple Book" Teil 10/I, and includes Ubben's claim, but no mission strength or time and nothing on German losses, which, according to the two of you, are not included in JG 77 Band 3 either. So I'll keep looking.

Regards,

Don

Re: III./JG 77 vs 12th USAAF, 1 Oct 1943
 

Dear Don,
gentlemen,

you are of course right observing that when JG 77 Vol. 3 was published some 15 years ago the corresponding claims microfilms from the BA were not yet avaliable to me so that I had to rely on the the sources at hand.

The claims lists of no other unit had to be revised to the degree that was the case with JG 77, as can be seen from the volumes of the current series; this applies in particular to the claims of JG 77 in Russia and in the Mediterrannean ToW.

This said, it is now clear that Kurt Ubben filed a claim for a B-17 on October 1st, 1943, when parts of III./JG 77 were scrambled against a bomber formation heading north on their way to Southern Germany. III./JG 77 encountered a formation of 30 - 40 Boeing B-17s that were bound for Augsburg, claiming one shot down by Maj. Ubben at 11.55 hrs. in the vicinity of Livorno - confirmed - and another by an unidentified pilot, whose claim was rejected. Flak claimed another B-17 in the same area at 11.52 hrs.

Hope this helps

Jochen Prien

Re: III./JG 77 vs 12th USAAF, 1 Oct 1943
 

Hello Jochen --

Thank you very much for your reply. This is exactly the information I was after.

Best regards,

Don

Re: III./JG 77 vs 12th USAAF, 1 Oct 1943
 

Looks like two B-17Fs of the 99th BG were shot down by fighters (per Footnote)
B-17F 42-30126 99th Gp 416th Sq
B-17F 42-5856 99th Gp 347th Sq

For 42-5856, an eyewitness report:
"I was the tail gunner on Aircraft no. 42-30474...at the start of the mission 42-5856 was the lead ship of an element in the second wave.
We had just executed a 180 degree turn heading from home almost directly due south ...we had gone about 50 miles directly south-not having reached the target (Augsburg,Germany) due to a solid overcast. We had gone to 50 miles of the target. Twenty-five to thirty enemy fighters hit aggresively at the turn. At approximately 1215 I observed a...Fortress which exploded in the air as a result of enemy fighter action.

Re: III./JG 77 vs 12th USAAF, 1 Oct 1943
 

Thanks, Kaki, for prodding me to look at the MACRs. There are three for B-17 losses on 1 Oct 1943. The two 99BG B-17s you mention crashed in western Austria and Switzerland, and were shot down by I./JG 27 or III./JG 3 (claims are too high to identify the German pilots).The third, 301BG B-17F 42-30053, was shot down by Bf 109s on the penetration leg, and crashed north of Pisa. Bingo! This was Ubben's victim. Flak may have also shot at this plane, but the part of the 30-page MACR I've looked at doesn't mention it. I've gotten what I need; it looks like my Footnote subscription is paying off.

Horrido!

Don

Re: III./JG 77 vs 12th USAAF, 1 Oct 1943
 

Hello everybody,
this is my first post. I resurrect this thread because it contains the info I was after for years. Too bad that I arrived here only AFTER I got them!
I live in a country area north of Pisa, Italy. Since I was a child tales by old people about a dogfight over here in WWII circulated and fascinated me. For a long time I just knew that in october 1943 a US heavy bomber was downed by german fighters scrambled from Metato airfield crashing on a nearby hill. Allegedly parts of the rudder were kept stored in a neighbour's barn for years but I never saw them. Some of the crew managed to bailout and although helped by local peasants to escape the nazis, they finally became POW. After the war as gesture of acknoledgement they wanted to meet again those generous people with whom remained in touch for a long time. The same accounts told that one or more german fighters went down. One in particular, crashed in a soft mud field was deemed unrecoverable, so german engineers dumped a load of dirt to prevent local people from taking souvenirs, whereabouts of the pilot unknown.
As always in verbal stories witnesses often augmented facts with personal fantasy. For instance rumours said that one member of the crew found dead in the B-17 fuming wreckage was a woman. Also local chronicles misreported some important details such as the correct date of the event. That's why, despite my researches started long ago, I could never gain the matching info.
Now, thanks to my access to Footnote's MACR', I got most of the truth. That's how I found this thread.
A couple of considerations. First it's odd that everything occurred within less than a 3,5 kilometers (2 miles) radius, therefore everything seems to have happened within a short time:
the Metato airfield (now long gone), the crew landing after bailout, their hideways, the B-17 and Bf 109 crash sites. My farmhouse is pretty in the middle so I know the area very well.
According to the MACR the german fighters made several attacks, during which US gunners were able to shot down one aggressor, then, after the interphone was out and the plane became ungovernable, the crew was forced to adopt difficult and time consuming procedures - considering the situation - before managing to bail out.
One member tells that he went back and forth from the cockpit to the radio room to check and instruct the others (he saw 3 of them apparently dead).
All this, in my opinion, takes many minutes and therefore miles of flying, regardless of the type or the state of the aircraft.
Plus, some witness confirms the presence of heavy flak fire in the area, possibly in defense of Metato, during the battle. Since no other US planes crashed in this area - at least according to local accounts - the theory that Maj Kurt Ubben was not the only one claiming the B-17 42-30053 is quite plausible.
However fate made this as his last victory before he was KIA in 1944.
I also know very well the crash sites although I never attempted an onsite research, Chances are that the Uffz. Walter Linkmann and his Bf 109G are still buried in the ground, maybe one day.....
I'm avalaible to provide further details,in case someone is interested, but I'll be grateful to anyone adding more info. My intention is to publish the whole story, as much detailed as possible, on an italian aviation magazine or so. Thank you for the attention.