List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
 

One of the folders with the freshly uploaded TsAMO documents on wwii.germandocsinrussia.org:

http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/r...inspect/zoom/8

Pages 14-21 - list of 99 captured Luftwaffe planes with WNr, board codes, motors WNr etc, partly with photos.
Pages 12-13 - list of 22 motors with WNr etc.

It was the German r/r echelon with damaged planes captured at the Chir (Tschir) station near Stalingrad.

Maybe some of these planes are unknown losses.

Best regards,
Andrey

Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
 

Andrey,

it is an excellent set of documents, especially pages 14-21. Many thanks for that.

Some basic knowledge of the Russian Cyrillic script will be required to decipher it though.

Regards,
Sinisa

Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
 

Thank you Andrey,

This data is greatly appreciated, especially the Luftwaffe engine pages.

Steve Sheflin

Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
 

5239 V4+BK belly landed near Stalingrad the previous October (30% Er) so likely in progress of retrival - or scrap. -Ed

Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
 

Thank you, Ed.

Hope the forum participants will clear up the career of other planes.

Best regards,
Andrey.

Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
 

Most probably Andrey, if you could give us some back-up with the writings, anyone has found how to save the images ??

Rémi

Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
 

Doc can be saved page by page (or many at a time actually) by : put link given in google translate, translate, save to HD, there open main saved file - look in there for images (first/top folder) they are there 1100 + pixel wide! :-) ....

Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
 

0880360218 Ju 88 C-6 [F1+ED] III/KG 76 (Luftflotte 4 East) OPS (F) engine failures (35% Er) at Rusow 16.09.1942 [ as C6 350218 in BA-MA RL 2 / III 1193 (GQM Verband losses) Lfd. 119 22.09.42]

Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
 

All of these planes reported as lost within July-October 1942 with various degrees of damage.

Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
 

Right, Ed, also printing them you save them as .png

Rémi

Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
 

Yes, seems have been a rather large aircraft collection. I read somewhere shortages of transport back home, then damaged equipment (for repair) just piled up and was then cannibalized for spares on site.

2336 - Ju 88 A-5 [V4+IK] 2./KG 1 (Luftflotte 4 East) OPS (F) engine failure and belly landed (20% Er) near Nishtscherskaja 01.11.1942

Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
 

thanks, they are larger images that way!

Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
 

p.64-68 some more machines

Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
 

Little history here!

5502 Ju 88 A-4 [9K+AA] III/KG 51 (Luftflotte 4 East) OPS (F) dam by AA fire (15%) at PLQ 3135 [and force landing in enemy territory of Soviet Union] 23.08.1942 (B Obgefr. Günther Heyde and BF Obgefr. Walter Repinsky inj)

[Major Freiherr Ernst von Bibra and crew saved by Oblt. Poppenburg in A4 9K+AD (Dierich KG 51)]

Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
 

Hello Nikita,

So all planes are known?

Best regards,
Andrey

Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
 

He 115 2729 8L+IH a little earlier, was a loss in Soviet ambush on lake Onega 22.10.42

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/536209899363242562/

https://books.google.is/books?id=9O4...inland&f=false

Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
 

We go at least to Jan.43, as He111h-5/3673/CM+KK, was lost by KGrzbv20 on 8.Jan.43 at Nowotscherkassk FP

Rémi

Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
 

Ju 88 "2076" is dubious, code likely 6M+DK, rather than GM+DK
but not found. - Ed

Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
 

On the echelon there were planes reported as lost within July-early November. Others are supposed to be in a dump nearby. The same situation in Oblivskaya.

Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
 

So all planes are known?


Probably, we will find a couple of new birds, the hell if in their situation the germans would be able to note all the planes left behind...

Rémi

Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
 

Try to match. Possibly you will find any. I have not finished comparing it against GQ yet.

Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
 

suspect GM+DK be Ju 87 2076 ?
-Ed

Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
 

Are the crew named ?? Concerning the Bf110F-3/5113 from 3.H11, seems commentary pretty long ....

Rémi

Andrey I posted you a message !

Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
 

Hello, all

Been through the documents, and most of them linkes up with aircraft damaged during the battel of Stalingrad.

Nikita - I just read the full message (in Spain on holiday - not quite awake...) - these are aircraft inspected at the Tschir railroad station!

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
 

S9+BB
Gruppenstab, I./ZG 1
3 September 1942
Emergency landing following hits from ground fire
2 Kms. north-north-east of Malyj.

Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
 

Hello Rémi,

What is the line number?

OK

Best regards,
Andrey

Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
 

Hello Andreas,

Glad to see you on the forum!

Where these planes were on paper during their unfinished railroad travel?

Best regards,
Andrey

Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
 

Hi, Andrey.

Been a while - too many obligations with family and work for a while.

Currently working on the list and connecting to loss records - will post whatI find.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
 

OK, here goes a try to get these sorted - all additional input welcome. I will try to use the serial allotted to each of the airframes by the Soviet intelligence in order to refer to them:

Page 1 has 11 entries, and I refer to them by the model etc as written by the Soviets. I have not altered the records to show information from the new source yet:

1. Ju 87 D-3 Trop WNr 2615: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=149072

2. Ju 87 R-2 WNr 6160:
Not found

3. Ju 88 A-5 WNr 5239:
http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=145877

4. Me 109F-4/R-1 WNr 13052:
http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=151701
http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=147475

5. Me 109E-7 WNr 5339:
http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=142487

6. Me 109E-7 WNr 5240:
http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=142392

7. Me 109E-3 WNr 824:
http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=142471

8. Me 109F-4/Trop WNr 10105:
http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=147048

9. Me 109F-4/Trop WNr 10217:
http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=147045

10. Me 109G WNr 14163:
http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=148834
http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=147704

11. Me 109G WNr 14189:
http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=147401

OK, that was the first page and first 'batch' - I do not know if the same treatment of the rest of the list is of interest?

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
 

5239 in better days.

Chuck

Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
 

Hi Andreas Excellent stuff please go one

Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
 

Hi Andreas,

Thank you for the info about 1st page entries.

Maybe the Tschir list is one of the keys to understanding the problem.

Some questions are appeared.

Planes in the entries 1, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 were damaged during Aug.42. Tschir station was liberated in the end of Nov.42. So damaged planes (incl.3 with 20% damages and 3 with 30% damages) for some unknown reason more than three months has remained at the airfields and some time on railroad.
It seems German repair service wasn’t very quick at the place in this case. Or these planes has received additional damages during Soviet air raids, for example. Or something else.

About item No.2 (Ju87R-2 WNr.6160 6G+DS, i.e. from II./StG1): production date (Apr.1941) is corresponded to known 61xx series Ju87Rs. Probably WNr.6160 was damaged in Aug.42 like bulk of 1st page entries. II./StG1 really had 3 Ju87R-2 in Aug.42 and according to “Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen” one of them lost due to enemy action. Maybe that's he? Or other lost/damaged Ju87R-2 is known?

As the final fates of these planes wasn’t reported by units to GQM Abt.6, it seems they were (on paper) between the front units and repair units at the time of final loss. Is it right?

Best regards,
Andrey

Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
 

One reason might be the supply difficulties. The logistical situation of the German 6th A was rather catastrophic even before the Soviet counteroffensive and the very difficult supply situation might well has its effects on the LW. Maybe many of the damaged planes were kept there as sources for spare parts.

Just a thought.

Juha

Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
 

Andrey,

The majority of these 10-30% and so are marked as Er in GQ.

Ju-87R-2 only loss was 6111 with groupkommander Hpt. Johann Zemsky on August 28, 1942.

Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
 

Nikita, thank you!

So Ju87R-2 No.6160 was discarded from II./StG1 in Sep.-Oct.42 probably.

"Majority" - so with some exceptions?

Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
 

hello Juha,

Maybe you are right. Logistic situation went down every month from July. But it seems the August-September is too early for the word "catastrophic" (my impression is mainly from the excellent Hayward's book "Stopped at Stalingrad").

Best regards,
Andrey

Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
 

My guess is that 6160 may be a wear and tear loss and was not reflected in GQ at all.

Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
 

Maybe it was tear and wear loss initially, yes. But it became a total loss in Nov.42, and nevertheless is absent in GQM returns.

Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
 

It could not appear in GQ since the plane left the unit. All presented in the list were marked as 10-90% of damage and Er together with wear and tear planes moved out of the units, scrapped in Tshir, Oblivskaya etc. Thus, in GQ we see only reason and percentage due to that they were withdrawn from the units.

Just tantamount when damaged plane leaves IAP to PARM for repair and further fate of this plane should be traced in PARMs documents.

Re: List from TsAMO of 99 (!) German warplanes and 22 motors captured at the Chir (Tschir) station (Stalingrad area)
 

So GQM returns contains only the part of losses, as I try to say from time to time. In the topic about Lfl 4 losses during Apr.-Jun.43 for example:
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...tflotte+losses

In Soviet Air Forces all turnover of the planes was in the documents of IAS (Engineer-Aviation Service) of the Air Armies - including repair units (PARM, PAM, SAM etc), at least from 1942-43. I saw the correspondence between Organizational Dept and Aircraft Accounting Dept of 4.VA with detailed analysis of discrepancy in the number of planes. It was because Organizational Dept didn’t accounted the planes en route between front units and repair units. But on Air Army Staff level the full picture was available.

It seems the same info for Luftwaffe is a total blind-spot. We even can’t say now whether the Luftflotte Staff knew the full info or not.