Is there any evidence the 1944 losses were ever captured?
 

Pretty much what it says on the tin.

Whilst the absence of this documentation is well known, I've never seen a single piece of firm evidence which convinced me that this material was ever originally captured and subsequently mislaid, just rumour and counter-rumour. As so little research time has been allocated to trying to provide a degree of clarity around this issue, I've spent some time looking into this myself and certainly have not been able to come up with anything to the contrary as very little seems to exist in the form of a documentary trail. As matters stand, there is no clear evidence that the 1944 losses were ever captured.

It might help to summarise my findings.

American Technical Intelligence Report E-3 quotes: 'Catalogue of OKL documents held at Berchtesgaden (Found there and in vicinity) 23 to 25 May 45 inclusive' records under Section K – 6th Abteilung:

Taken from salt mines 25/5/45


K-1 A very large number of reports on G.A.F. losses (Verlustmeldungen) many of which were extremely wet and in danger of becoming illegible. Most of the Verlustmeldungen are in good order, with the exception of some on top of the box.


K2 A very large number of reports on G.A.F. losses (Verlustmeldungen)

I have also worked through several hundred pages of ADI(K) Captured German Document lists in AIR 40/1180 - 1183 and have found nothing to confirm that the 1944 losses were ever originally captured. These lists do contain references to losses material being captured, however, these references lack precision and therefore provide no firm evidence one way or the other.

It would seem that these records were largely held by the AHB (Air Historical Branch) during the post-war period to support the various Historical Studies being undertaken. I recently turned up a letter in CAB 106/282 which also supports the non-capture of the 1944 material. A file note d/d 12/4/47 letter references data extracted from these files and states: it is thus possible to obtain accurate figures for any given day from the beginning of the War until the end of 1943, the period covered by the documents at present available. Again this seems to confirm the absence of the 1944 data.

The loss records were microfilmed by the IWM (excluding 1944) in the mid-1970s following loan from the AHB prior to restitution of the originals to the BA-MA by AHB in 1977.

If anyone has anything to add, then I'd be delighted to read it, particularly if it can help advance understanding. The intention in posting this thread is to to try and draw out any fact based evidence which might exist out there to confirm whether this material was ever originally captured. I should also add that I have no issue in being proven wrong.

One final request. Could responses please concentrate on the point at hand as I do not wish the thread to become derailed as to the various ways in which the 1944 data can be partially reconstructed as that is in itself an entirely separate issue.

Re: Is there any evidence the 1944 losses were ever captured?
 

Steve -

".............extremely wet and .............becoming illegible." Just a thought, but I wonder if the Leitz binders holding the 1944 submissions did indeed get soaked, became illegible and were tossed out by a low-ranking G.I. underling and that's why a formal report was never made?

L.

Re: Is there any evidence the 1944 losses were ever captured?
 

Larry

It's possible. I also wonder if it's possible that the documents being referred to are the NVMs?

Steve

Re: Is there any evidence the 1944 losses were ever captured?
 

Hello Steve and Larry,

NVM's: I have seen many (copies) of NVM's which had burned edges which is another type of damage, suggesting that these records became damaged by fire somewhere else (RLM Berlin?)

If I remember it correctly, copies of Gen.Qm.Abt.6 ObdL Flugzeugverluste went to many other departments as well, leaving a (small) chance that the missing 1944 files might be found 'hidden' there. But on the other hand: the archives of these departments might be lost too, including copies of the 1944 loss files.

Best regards, Marcel

Re: Is there any evidence the 1944 losses were ever captured?
 

Marcel

Thanks. Like yourself, I've seen several NVMs with clearly burnt edges. I don't know enough about the movement of these documents towards the end of the war to be anything other than speculative. Certainly, the nature of the wording of the American report doesn't aid precision. I am hopeful someone can come forward with something they've come across in a post-war document to aid understanding.

Steve

Re: Is there any evidence the 1944 losses were ever captured?
 

Something like 10+, 21 ? copies were made for different services, but even for the years known seems only one set hs been preserved of 10 or 21 existing , we could hv some hope with the TSAMO docs, whose losses for 1940 were quite consistent nd more complete than the ones of the Gen.Qm.Abt.6 ObdL, for the polish nd french campaign, but no list like the ones of the Gen.Qm.Abt.6 ObdL, so....


Rémi

Re: Is there any evidence the 1944 losses were ever captured?
 

It appears that your search has not considered the potential Alladin's cave of german documents collected by the Western Allies. That was the Paris document clearing house used by a number of allied organizations incuding the warcrimes trial commission, RAF , USSBS, CIOS, etc. There were microfilm facilities at this location, this was the source of the USNavy microfilms of captured german documents.. In that the Navy microfilms were samples of the Paris accession lists. I do not know of any research that has really studied this source in detail, including what was the disposition of documents, or whether there are any extant copies of the full accession lists.
Best Regards,
ArtieBob

Re: Is there any evidence the 1944 losses were ever captured?
 

I gather that BA-MA also has material in its basement awaiting preservation and registration in the collection, so perhaps the dream can stay alive for now.

Re: Is there any evidence the 1944 losses were ever captured?
 

Gentlemen - Thanks for your various contributions. Regrettably, none of these are based on any firm evidence which is what I was hoping for at this stage, even if to definitively confirm the absence of this data.

Rémi / Nick - Hopefully time will see something emerge.

Artie - As far as I am aware, large chunks of the Paris material are referred to in the ADI(K) Captured German Document lists as I've seen very specific references to documents being passed to the US Navy team for microfilming although this was all pretty much developmental rather than operational. I'm not aware of any significant cache of captured German documents in the US which have not been subsequently restituted to the Germans although a lot of the material passed to the US Navy team seems to have been destroyed at a fairly early stage.

Does any significant cache of original German material remain in the US?

Re: Is there any evidence the 1944 losses were ever captured?
 

Steve -

I think you will find the Eckert title below of considerable interest. Does it tell you where to find the 1944 Verlustmeldungen? No. But she will give you information that will help you with some of your other questions.

Eckert, Astrid M. The Struggle for the Files: The Western Allies and the Return of German Archives After the Second World War. WashDC: Cambridge University Press, 2013. ISBN: 978-1-107-62920-2. Pb. 427p. Abbreviations. Bibliography (extensive). Index.

The CIA and NSA still have some German documents, according to archivists at NARA, but even they don't know what these are aside from some Abwehr material. I doubt if any of these documents concern the Luftwaffe.

L.