Highest scoring B-29
 

Which crew scored the most aerial victories flying B-29s? I believe several crews claimed more than 5 victories over Japan 1944-1945.

Re: Highest scoring B-29
 

I believe it was the crew of "Thumper" but I don't remember the score somewhere around 15 or so.

Re: Highest scoring B-29
 

Gentlemen,

It would be very interesting to know about individual B-29s scoring 10 or more kills during the Pacific war especially over Japan.

Edward L. Hsiao

Re: Highest scoring B-29
 

Good afternoon Gentlemen,

very interesting issue.
I think the top B-29 gunner was a guy named John Sutherland who allegedly shot down 5.

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Highest scoring B-29
 

There are several newspapers articles about Thumper at the time. It was the first B-29 the complete its tour and return to the US for war bond tours. The 22 July 1945 St Louis Dispatch has an article and picture of the plane. It is hard to make out the mission bombs and kill flags in the photo, but the article says it is the only surviving plane from the original 120 planes in the 73rd Bomb Wing. The plane completed 40 bombing missions. Members of it crews were credited with 26 Japanese planes and 19 probables. During is fighting career it has flown over 175,000 miles and dropped over 600,000 lbs of high explosives and fire bombs. The plane had been "hit" over 100 times according to one article. Another article mentions 10 flak holes. It is not clear how many different crews flew her. On the tour was the first pilot that had flown her, Col Robert E Haynes and apparently the crew that flew her home.

It does appear that at some point the way the mission bombs and kill flags were painted was redone. Some of the early photos show the "named" mission bombs with flags sticking out of the bombs for kills and Thumper riding each bomb. One of those photos shows Thumper with six kill flags on one bomb (Tokyo) along with perhaps at least 1 purple heart.

Early nose art: https://twitter.com/wwiipix/status/913127724579000321

The war bond photos in the newspapers seem to show 4 rows of 10 bombs and the kill flags in rows of 5 in a separate section of the nose. Cannot tell if the bombs still have target names on them. I would guess some clearer photos exist somewhere.

Re: Highest scoring B-29
 

B-29 GUNNER
ACES OF THE 20TH AIR FORCE!

Re: Highest scoring B-29
 

Good evening RSwank,

can you tell me the names of the pilots who flew that B-29 in combat ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Highest scoring B-29
 

I'll see if I can find some of the crews. Col. Haynes flew 25 missions in Thumper (according to one article). Haynes was an airline pilot and Lockheed test pilot before the war. He joined the RCAF where he flew Wellingtons then on to the 8th AF flying B-17s, (some 78 European missions according to one article). Haynes then went to the 497th were he flew "50" missions in the Pacific. Thumper arrived in the Pacific on October 18, 1944 and returned to the US in early June 1945. The bond tour may have started in July, as one article mentions the crew got a 30 days leave when they returned to the US.

It is interesting to read the various newspaper articles about the tour, as there are different bits of information (hopefully facts) in each one. One article says that the crew flying the plane was the first complete B-29 crew to return to the US after having flown 30 or more missions. At other stops on the tour there is often some local connection. One stop talks about one of the ground crew (a local boy) who was an engine mechanic for the plane while it was based at Saipan.

As an example of how the "facts" get confused, some articles put Haynes' missions as 75 in Europe and 33 in the Pacific. Haynes himself made a distinction between bombing missions and other missions he flew (such as lifeguard or weather missions), so that might be part of the confusion. Another article says he flew 108 combat missions, which could be 75 + 33.

Another "fact" in one write-up says that Thumper was the first B-29 to fly over Tokyo. I believe the first B-29 over Tokyo was a recon ship "Tokyo Rose" on November 1, 1944. It was flown by Ralph D. Steakley. (The plane was named after the flight.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1_Nove...tie_over_Japan
The photos were so good that some were used until the end of the war.

Thumper was one of the planes on the first bombing raid over Tokyo, November 24, 1944.



Update 1: Found another pilot. Captain Charles C Fishburne, Jr. of Darien GA. The line in the newspaper that mentions this says he was the pilot for a "majority" of Thumper's missions. Now if Haynes flew 25 in Thumper and the plane flew a total of 40 then this "fact" does not quite fit. (Part of the confusion may be how the Thumper missions were counted, 40 actual bombing missions vs total missions flown (which may have been 50 or so). )

An interesting odd fact about Fishburne is that he was the first pilot to bomb Tokyo in the new year of 1945, according to several newspaper accounts in January, 1945.

Update 2: Found another pilot J. M Campbell. There is an account of one his crew here:
http://www.497thbombgroupb29.org/per...ld,%20Carl.pdf

Searching for A-21 in the above shows 9 missions (two of them were weather missions, not bombing missions).

Re: Highest scoring B-29
 

Good morning Ed,

very interesting.
Do you have a photo of Charles Fishburne ?
Or can you tell me if gunner John Sutherland was part of the "Thumper" crew ?

Michael

Re: Highest scoring B-29
 

I believe John Sutherland was in the 499th BG, part of the Chester Marshall crew. Thumper was in the 497th BG. Here is an excerpt from a book by Marshall.

http://b-29.org/73BW/chester-marshal...-marshall.html

In the crew photo for V-27 (Mary Ann) at the top of the page. John Sutherland is mentioned as the tail gunner and is credited with 5 victories.

Re: Highest scoring B-29
 

Good evening RSwank,

thanks for that cool link.
I stumbled over the job designation:

• John Cox - airplane commander
• Chester Marshall - pilot (co-pilot)

Who flew the plane ?

Michael

Re: Highest scoring B-29
 

The Airplane Commander. For some reason the AAF decided to change the name for the Pilot to Airplane (or Aircraft) Commander.

Here is a training manual for the "Airplane Commander". The 2nd position is still called co-pilot in this manual

http://www.jamminpower.com/PDF/Fligh...20Training.pdf


On page 60 of this book: https://books.google.com/books?id=BV...20seat&f=false

the positions are left seat, "Aircraft Commander" and right seat "Pilot".

Re: Highest scoring B-29
 

Good morning RSwank,

thanks for your answer.
Thus, if B-29 pilots were credited with the kills of their gunners (which they weren't) then John Cox would have been a 10-kill-B-29-ace, wouldn't he ?

Have a nice weekend,

Michael

Re: Highest scoring B-29
 

Good morning Gentlemen,

what was the middle name of Robert E Haynes ?

Kind regards,

Michael

Re: Highest scoring B-29
 

I believe his middle name was Eugene. One correction to a previous post, when he joined the AAF he flew with the 2nd BG (then with the 12th AF) in North Africa. He flew some 58 missions according to one newspaper article from 1943 and in October 1943 came home with his crew and his plane, the B-17F 42-29611 "A-Merry-Can".


(Osborne's FortLog on 42-29611 does not quite match up date wise, not sure why).

In the photo Lt Col Haynes appears to be standing, 2nd from the right. There are 58 mission bombs on the plane, including a "battleship". The photo may have been taken just prior to or during the war bond tour.
Haynes went from Captain to Major to Lt Col in the 2nd BG. He was the 49th Squadron Commander.

http://www.2ndbombgroup.org/images/U...and%20B-17.jpg


There are a couple of on-line pdf books on the 2nd BG website ( http://2ndbombgroup.org/ ). They are "The Second was First" and "Defenders of Liberty" Haynes is mentioned many times in them e.g.:

"Lt. Col. Robert E. "Pappy" Haynes, Commander,
49th Squadron was awarded the Distinguished
Flying Cross on September 18, (1943) the first
member of the Group to be so honored."

Haynes was born 29 April 1908 in New York and died on 1 December 1996 in California. His body was cremated.

Re: Highest scoring B-29
 

Good morning RSwank,

thanks for the cool info, your knowledge is impressive.
Can you tell me if Haynes' 25 Thumper missions were the first 25 missions in Thumper's service ?

Have a nice Wednesday,

Michael

Re: Highest scoring B-29
 

No, Haynes did not fly all of the first 25 Thumper missions. As an example, there is a diary of Carl Barthold from the J. M. Campbell crew here:

http://www.497thbombgroupb29.org/per...ld,%20Carl.pdf


On page pdf page 8, he describes a mission they flew on A-21, Thumper on 15 February, 1945 to Nagoya. He mentions that R. G. Didier got an "Irving" on the mission.

In this photo of the the Campbell crew in front of Thumper that Nagoya mission with a kill flag is shown as mission number 18 of the 20 missions shown.

http://www.497thbombgroupb29.org/ima...%20A-21%20.png

Re: Highest scoring B-29
 

Hello RSwank,

very interesting.
I think the mission with the 6 kills was flown by Haynes.
Are any other missions with claimed enemy aircraft known to have been flown by Mr Haynes ?

Have a nice Thursday,

Michael

Re: Highest scoring B-29
 

There is a section in fold3 (I think it is in the FREE section) that contains some details on the missions flown by 497th BG planes. The section starts here:

https://www.fold3.com/image/291/316632850

I went through it see see what could be learned about Thumper and Haynes. When comparing the mission flags we see on Thumper in this photo:

http://www.497thbombgroupb29.org/ima...%20A-21%20.png

we run into a few problems. Haynes appears to have flown the first 15 missions in Thumper as listed on the fold3 pages. The pages and the photo seem to agree at the start. The first mission was to Truk on 30 Oct 44, the 2nd to Iwo Jima on 5 Nov. Then Thumper shows 5 mission flags to Tokyo. The fold3 missions show only 4 Tokyo missions for Haynes (to Musashino which is Tokyo), on 24 Nov, 27 Nov, 29 Nov and 3 Dec, so there seems to be an "extra" Tokyo mission flag on Thumper. (A missing fold3 mission perhaps).

Next, fold3 shows a mission to Iwo Jima on 8 December which was aborted, so no mission flag. This is followed by two missions to Nagoya flown by Haynes. One kill on the 13 Dec mission and 2 kills on 22 December (they also show on the Thumper photo).

Next a mission to Musashino-Tokyo with 1 kill on 27 Dec 44.
Haynes flies to Nagoya on 3 Jan and Osaka on 9 Jan. Then to Nagoya on 14 Jan with 2 kills.
To Nagoya on the 23rd of Jan. Then, on 27 Jan, Haynes flies the 6 kill mission to Musashino-Tokyo. This is the last mission Haynes flies on Thumper according to the fold3 list. In fact, Haynes name does not appear on any further missions for any planes in the fold3 mission list that I could find. (Maybe an extra pair of eyes is needed). Another possibility is he flew other missions in a lead ship but was in the right hand ("co-pilot") seat. He was the squadron commander so he may have been directing the mission but not "flying" the lead ship.

Lamback flys a Super Dumbo mission (target was Kobe) on 4 Feb. Delker flys to Ota on 10 Feb and then J.M. Campbell flys the 15 Feb mission to Nagoya with 1 kill.

Campbell flies several more missions on Thumper (he flew a total of 7). Many other Aircraft Commander (AC) names show up. The fold3 list shows 43 "missions" for Thumper, but 3 of those are Aborts (plane took off but did not get to target) and 2 are Scratches (plane never took off).

Thus we don't get to 40 listed missions for Thumper either. I suspect there may be a few missing missions on the fold3 list. (I know there are errors in at least one of the serial numbers listed, for example). While photos exist of Thumper with all the mission flags in the original format (with names on the bombs and Thumper riding each one) I have not found a photo clear enough to read all the target names. Then, as was mentioned in a prior post, when Thumper was on the bond tour, the nose art had been redone. (Oddly, one name that does not show up at all as a pilot forThumper is Fishburne (see post #8).)


FYI, there is another section on fold3 that has the citations for medals given in the 497th BG. That section starts here: https://www.fold3.com/image/291/316633395

Re: Highest scoring B-29
 

RSwank,
I took a look at the Fold3 material that you linked, out of curiosity. I am not sure it is free; I had to log in. In any case, looking at the contents, I have to conclude that this is not an original document. It looks more like something prepared in Excel, or the output of an Access report. So my first question would be, what is the original source for these listings? The next thing I noted is that the mission list has a gap from Nov 5 to Nov 24. Did the 497th fly no missions in this period?

If my guess that this is something prepared by Fold3 (or possibly given to Fold3) I do not find it surprising that there could be a gap, considering all the gaps that apparently have never been filled in the MACR collection (which ought to be totally revised to use the unique MACR number, instead of the aircraft serial number, which can be missing or duplicated). Thus one needs to find the original source documents, and go back to them. These documents are probably in NARA II, since Fold3 has developed a relationship with NARA.

So someone needs to find and review the original documents.

Enjoy!

Frank.

Re: Highest scoring B-29
 

The B-29s based in the Marianas did six "training" missions against Truk and 2 missions to Iwo Jima in November. There are 3 Truk missions shown on the fold3 list for the 497th and the two Iwo missions. I don't think there are any "missing" Truk missions for the 497th as I believe all the bomb groups in the Marianas flew some training missions to Truk so the other 3 Truk missions were probably flown by other groups.

Nov 24 was the first raid against Japan (Tokyo) by units in the Marianas.

The fold3 record shows Thumper did one Truk mission, and one of the two Iwo missions that show in the 497th fold3 record. It then flew the first Japan mission on the 24th and that seems to be what the nose art shows.

There were still B-29s in India and China during this time and raids were conducted against Singapore, Burma and Thailand by Calcutta based planes and planes from Chengtu, China conducted raids against Kyushu, Japan and Shanghai, China.

The fold3 gaps may be more like a plane not shown for a particular mission date rather than the whole date is missing for the group. I think this "spreadsheet" was possible done by people interested in the 497th possibly they are connected with the 497th website or some earlier associated site. As you note it is not an official record.

Re: Highest scoring B-29
 

The Long Haul, the 497th's unit history published in 1947, is on line, and can be downloaded at http://digicom.bpl.lib.me.us/ww_reg_his/106/

It has a mission list near the back of the book. It shows a single mission in the November gap period. On November 10 a single B-29 flew a reconnaissance mission to Tokyo at 32,000 feet. So in this case the problem is not with Fold3. One would have to go back to the original sources to see if this was Thumper.

Enjoy!

Frank.

Re: Highest scoring B-29
 

Frank,

That could very well be the "missing" Tokyo mission for Thumper (and Haynes) that shows in the first row of mission nose art bombs . In the newspaper interviews Haynes was giving at the time of the bond tour, Haynes mentions a mission ( or maybe missions) which were done by a single plane (Thumper) to work out fuel loads, bomb loads, etc. for missions to Japan. The time frame seems about right.

Searching for Haynes in the book there are 14 hits. An interesting one is that on Feb 2, 1945 (or Feb 1 on another page) Haynes transferred to the 73rd Bomb Wing. Thus if he flew more missions after Feb 2, we need to look elsewhere for them. He (later?) became Deputy Commander of the 499th Bomb Group. Thus his 27 Jan 45 mission to Tokyo in Thumper was his last mission with the group. Now the question becomes what happened to "his" crew in the 497th that returned with him to the US.. They obviously completed their tour but with who, maybe Haynes "co-pilot" got promoted to AC?


I will see if these "clip" options on the newspapers site works so that anyone can view them (or if they are only for paid members).

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/1631...06_aug_45_war/


https://www.newspapers.com/clip/1631...rns_june_1945/


UPDATE, I started to try and track the men in the photo and some of them that I could find were in the 499th not the 497th. We know Thumper stayed in the 497th. Now the question is did Haynes crew stay or did some of them move with him. Or.... is this a crew or part of a crew that flew with Haynes in the 499th. The plot thickens.... ;-)

Re: Highest scoring B-29
 

Good morning RSwank,

that means piloted by Haynes THUMPER claimed 12 kills, right ?

Michael

Re: Highest scoring B-29
 

So it would appear.

Re: Highest scoring B-29
 

Good afternoon RSwank,

is it known if the other B-29's he piloted shot anything down ?

Michael

Re: Highest scoring B-29
 

Michael,

There is a spreadsheet of the 499th missions which downloads directly from this link:

http://www.exciteableitalian.com/73r...issions_FP.xls

You can search for Haynes and get a list of all the missions he flew in the 499th. There 18 missions showing him as either pilot or co-pilot (two of them are aborts). The first mission is 10 Feb 45 and the last mission is 25-26 May 45. (After his bail-out at Iwo Jima, he flew two more missions.)

The list shows the V code and serial number of the plane, plane name, date, target and pilots. Unfortunately no kills are recorded so it does not answer your question. It may be possible to use the information given to find kill info but that may not be on-line.

Of interest perhaps is it shows (after he transferred on Feb 2, 1945 from the 497th) he started flying missions very quickly. He also did not fly in a preferred plane. With only a couple of plane repeats he flew in different planes most of the time.

Re: Highest scoring B-29
 

Good evening RSwank,

that looks very much as if Haynes flew 15 missions in 497. BG and 18 missions in 499. BG for a total of 33 PTO missions, doesn't it ?

Michael

Re: Highest scoring B-29
 

For both bomb groups we are looking at compiled lists, not original documents, so it is possible some missions were missed. We strongly suspect the 497th list missed one mission Haynes flew in Thumper. It shows in the nose art of the plane and it appears in the BG's post war history book. So adding that in gives the 15 mission count. I think that is correct.

The two aborts noted in the 499th list might be more problematic. Normally an aborted mission did not count, but there "may" have been special circumstances where an aborted mission could be counted. (Although if that happened they probably would not mark the mission as an "abort".)

Aborts were a problem with B-29s. In mid-January 1945 for example, abort rates were 23% per mission (many caused by engine failures). By July 1945, they were down to around 7%. Engine life had been extended from typically 200 hours to 750 hours.

Joe Baugher has a summary of the B-29 offensive from the Marianas here: http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_bombers/b29_10.html

Re: Highest scoring B-29
 

Good morning RSwank,

I we assume that Haynes flew 15 THUMPER missions and the 6-kill-mission was his last of these then he would have flown the first 15 missions depicted on the plane's well-known nose art. That would include 13 aerial kills.

Kind regards,

Michael

Re: Highest scoring B-29
 

This very interesting. However as we know the B-29 claims against the Japanese air forces are astronomically high (in one raid they claim 80 kills!). The claims by escorting P-51/P-47 fighters appear to be demonstrably more accurate. The USAAF Bomb Groups in the ETO show the same level of enthusiasm in making claims.

I would be very interested in knowing the types of Japanese fighters shot down.

Re: Highest scoring B-29
 

Good evening Keith,

yes, of course, the "confirmation" and documentation of kills and the permission to depict them within the nose art was much less strict and standardized in bombers than in fighters. Most kills might have been overclaims but anyway it's interesting to compare what the crew felt to be shootdowns.

Best greetings from Switzerland,

Michael