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-   -   Question about octane fuel requirements for DB601A and DB601N engines for the Bf109E (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=31381)

Larry Hickey 9th October 2012 20:04

Question about octane fuel requirements for DB601A and DB601N engines for the Bf109E
 
Hello,

My understanding is that a Bf109E-4 (or any other E subtype) with an 87 in the octane fuel triangle below the fuselage fuel fill point indicated that the a/c had a standard DB601A engine. Whereas for the plane to be equipped with an upgraded DB601N engine it would have been indicated by a "100" for the octane rating in the fuel triangle. I know that the DB601N became standard for the "F" subtype, but I know that some 109Es also carried this more powerful engine and were thus designated as Bf109E-4/N subtypes.Do I understand this correctly?

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Clint Mitchell 9th October 2012 20:26

Re: Question about octane fuel requirements for DB601A and DB601N engines for the Bf109E
 
Larry,

My understanding is:

DB601A = 87 octane fuel = 87 in triangle

DB601N = 100 octane fuel = C3 in triangle

Larry Hickey 9th October 2012 20:33

Re: Question about octane fuel requirements for DB601A and DB601N engines for the Bf109E
 
Clint,

There are examples of Bf109E octane triangles with the number "100" in them, as well as others with "C3." Are these designations then interchangeable?

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Clint Mitchell 9th October 2012 20:40

Re: Question about octane fuel requirements for DB601A and DB601N engines for the Bf109E
 
I presume that some used the octane number and some used the type of fuel. Interesting to know if any show B4 for the DB601A. For example:

DB601A = B4 - 87 octane fuel = 87 in triangle or B4 in triangle?

DB601N = C3 - 100 octane fuel = 100 in triangle or C3 in triangle

cjme201262 9th October 2012 20:57

Re: Question about octane fuel requirements for DB601A and DB601N engines for the Bf109E
 
C2 = 100 natural
C3= 100 synthetic

Larry Hickey 9th October 2012 20:57

Re: Question about octane fuel requirements for DB601A and DB601N engines for the Bf109E
 
Clint,

I don't ever recall seeing "B4" inside a Bf109 fuel octane triangle.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Clint Mitchell 9th October 2012 21:46

Re: Question about octane fuel requirements for DB601A and DB601N engines for the Bf109E
 
Thanks, :)

John Beaman 9th October 2012 22:07

Re: Question about octane fuel requirements for DB601A and DB601N engines for the Bf109E
 
Larry:

The 601 was the standard engine for the E model. It used 87 octane fuel. the 601N was used in some Es and required 100 octane fuel.

Pending development of the 601E, the 601N was also used in the F-2, hence the 100 in the octane marking. The F-4 used the 601E which used 87 octane. The only F-4 you will see with a 100 octane marking is the F-4Z which used a nitrous oxide boost system under pressure, for limited times. There was no F-2Z

It is my understanding that B4 was the artificial version of 87 fuel and C3 was the artificial version of 100 fuel. These were not interchangeable in the aircraft fuel system, hence the triangle warnings. I have never seen a C2 in any photo. Later versions of the 605D could be "tuned" in the field to use either type of octane rating, but this was in the G-10 and K-4 machines.

Larry Hickey 9th October 2012 23:17

Re: Question about octane fuel requirements for DB601A and DB601N engines for the Bf109E
 
John,

Thanks. So for an aircraft to have the designation Bf109E-4/N (or E-3/N) it would have had to have had a 601N engine, and the dead give away from photos would be a "100" in the fuselage octane triangle. Is that correct? I'm concerned only with the period to the end of 1940.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Kurfürst 10th October 2012 11:13

Re: Question about octane fuel requirements for DB601A and DB601N engines for the Bf109E
 
I have gathered some of the info in an article earlier. Some new data has been found ever since, and it seems the initial Gruppe of Emils were belonging to II/JG 26, and as per Caldwell's diary, they seem to have received them in July 1940 during a refit (he does not say /Ns but he mentions the aircraft were new ones).

http://kurfurst.org/Engine/DB60x/DB6...asheets_N.html

German 100 octane / DB 601N fittings can be summarized as follows, via Mankau/Petrick's excellent Zestorer monograph. Essentially 110s had priority for these engines until the automn of 1940, when the situation reversed and 109s received priority and began to appear in larger numbers.


On the 12 July 1940 General der Luftwaffe meeting, it was noted that DB 601N engines are to be installed primarly into Bf 110s, then its followed in the serial production Bf 109E.

On the 19 July 1940 General der Luftwaffe meeting, it was noted DB 601N engine are installed in frontline Bf 110s. So far 1 Gruppe of Bf 109E was fitted with the new engine. The Bf 109F entering production is also using the 601N engine.

On the 26 July 1940 General der Luftwaffe meeting, the General Staff requesting more Bf 110 to be fitted with DB 601N. Decision would be made in the end of August 1940.

On the 9 August 1940 General der Luftwaffe meeting, it was noted that 3 Gruppen of Bf 110 and one Gruppe of Bf 109 was fitted with DB 601N. Increased installations require increasing the reserve of DB 601N motors.

On the 30 August 1940 General der Luftwaffe meeting, it was noted that for 280 'active' DB 601N motors, the no. engines in reserve is to reach 180.

On the 27 September 1940 General der Luftwaffe meeting, it was noted that the Chief of Staff decided that 4 Gruppen of Bf 110 is to be fitted with 601N and the number to be maintained. 1/3 of the remaining DB 601N engines is to be reserved as replacement engines for frontline units, and the remaining 2/3s are to be released to be installed in Bf 109 aircraft.

On the 18 October 1940 General der Luftwaffe meeting, it was noted that apart from the already present 1 Bf 109 Gruppe with DB 601N, no more is possible to be equipped. Existing DB 601N are required by: 1, New production Bf 109F 2, New production Bf 110 delivered by Mtt AG as replacement to the existing 4 Bf 110 Gruppen with 601N 3, 40 replacement Bf 109E (conversions) to maintain the strenght of the 1 Bf 109 Gruppe with 601N. 5, Replacement/reserve engines for 1, 2, and 3.

On the 26 October 1940 General der Luftwaffe meeting, it was noted that by the end of October, 1100-1200 DB 601N engines were delivered, and were used for the 4 Gruppen of Bf 110 and one Gruppe of Bf 109 equipped with DB 601N, and to maintain these units with replacements, and furthermore to recon units under Luftwaffe High Command. The remaining engines are used for Bf 109F-1, F-2 production. 130 engines were reserved for circulation (replacement). All Bf 110s produced, apart from the DB 601N equipped ones by Mtt AG are to be directed to maintain the strenght of 120 of night fighter units.

On the 6 November 1940 General der Luftwaffe meeting, it was noted that General Staff requested all DB 601N engines to be installed in Bf 109E. In order to free up engines, 2 months worth of production (November, December) of Bf 110s produced by Mtt is to engined with DB 601A instead of 601N. 601N engines are to be distributed: 1) Final production series of Bf 109E 2) Replacement engines for III/ZG 26, Erpobunggruppe 210. If 601N engines are not available in sufficient quantities, the following Gruppen can be given 601A as replacement engines: II/ZG 26, II/ZG 76. As the production of 601N in January 1941 will be considerably greater, Bf 110 production shall switch completely to 601N.

On the 22 January 1941 General der Luftwaffe meeting, it was reported that on 1 January 1941, the following number of DB 601N engines were installed in frontline aircraft.

in Bf 109s
Bf 109E-1 : 16 pcs, Bf 109E-3 : 1 pc, Bf 109E-4 : 54 pcs, Bf 109E-6 : 1 pc, Bf 109E-7 : 34 pcs, Bf 109E-8 : 2pcs. Bf 109F-1 : 5 pcs.
Total 112 Bf 109E with DB 601N present in service, plus 5 Bf 109F.

in Bf 110s
Bf 110C-1 : 4 pcs, Bf 110C-4 : 40 pcs, Bf 110C-5 : 12, Bf 110C-7 : 14 pcs, Bf 110D-0 : 18 pcs, Bf 110D-2 : 20 pcs, Bf 110D-3 : 8 pcs, BF 110E-1 : 176 pcs, Bf 110E-2 : 14 pcs.

Total : 306 engines, ie. 153 Bf 110s with DB 601N present in service.

in Misc. types
He 111P : 8 pcs, Do 215 : 68 pcs.

By 1st April, the following conversion to DB 601N is planned: 6 Gruppen of Bf 110 = 480 engines, 5 Gruppen of Bf 109E-7/N = 200 engines, 12 Gruppen of Bf 109F = 480 engines, 'Rowehl' = 70 engines. This means by 1 April appx. 850 DB 601N engines will be in active operation.

etc.

Source: Pages 24-29 in Heinz Mankau/Peter Petrick : Messerschmidt Bf 110, Me 210, Me 410. Aviatic Verlag, 2001. ISBN: 3925505628


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