JG Information
 

Hello everyone

I am trying to track down information regarding a specific staffel that was flying toward the Brest Penninsula at approximately 2035h on July 13,1944. Twelve Fw 190's were engaged near L'Aigle by 12 RCAF 441 Sqdn. Spitifre IX's with the Fw's losing 10 aircraft and 1 damaged, while the Canadians did not suffer a loss.

I am seeking any information re: this staffel, websites, addresses or people to contact who may further my research. Any information would be gratefully accepted.

Thank you for any help you can provide.

Joe

Re: JG information needed
 

Hi Joe:

I moved your thread to here as it seemed more suited.

Your Fws may have been from III./JG 2. They had 12 machines active in the area and made one claim at 2030 hours. They lost 2, Uffz Kolmanitsch safe, Ofhr von Richtofen KIA.

Re: JG information needed
 

John
Kolmanitsch was apparently from another combat, being a Me 109 pilot from II/JG2. Anyway, even if there were some more losses, that are unrecorded in known papers, it still looks Canucks did some serious overclaim. Of course, I would be happy to be proven otherwise.

Re: JG information needed
 

Hi, guys.

According to the Summarische Verlustemeldungen for this date, the following losses were sustained by elements of JG 2:

Stab:
None

I. Gruppe:
None

II. Gruppe:
1 aircraft category 4 "Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft on operational flight, observed by enemy"
1 aircraft category 21 "Damaged without enemy action on operational flight"

No pilots were killed but a pilot of non-officer rank was wounded in the category 21 accident, (this probably then not being Uffz Kolmanitsch, as John Beaman indicates he was not wounded, and would robably be the pilot of the category 4 aircraft)

III. Gruppe:
5 aircraft category 4 "Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft on operational flight, observed by enemy"
1 aircraft category 20 "Destroyed without enemy action on operational flight"

One pilot of non-officer rank was killed in one of the category 4 losses, this then probably being Ofhr von Richthofen.

Destroyed does not necessary mean a total destruction of pilot AND aircraft, but rather a loss percentage of above 50%, and the term damaged thus implies a loss of less than or equal to 50%.

So - if no other sources are available, we will probably get further information on only two of theses losses, one of the III. Gruppe category 4 losses and the category 21 II. Gruppe loss.

Seems the canadians only overclaimed by about 100% this day, I guess that is not too bad for a rather large furball.

Regards,
Andreas

Re: JG information needed
 

Hi Andreas,

A little bit off the subject, but could you please explain the damaged/destroyed
catagories you used. I haven't seen any like them before. Thanks,

Walt

Re: JG information needed
 

Hello every body

In the Jean-Bernard Frappé book "La luftwaffe face au débarquement allié" we have for july 13th a luftwaffe claim at 2035 Ofw Munsche III./JG2, a spitfire near Vimoutiers and for the luftwaffe losses for this day :

A fw 190 from the II./JG1
A Bf 109 G6 "9 white" wrkn 163831 Uffz Kurt Senger (KIA) 7./JG1 near West of Epaignes
A bf 109 G6 wrkn 165865 Uffz Erwin Kolmantisch (injuried) 5./JG2 Montlognon
A Fw 190 A8 wrkn 730909 Ofhr Ruthart Von Richtofen (KIA) 10./JG2 South East Argentan
A bf 109 G6/U4/AS "6 white" wrkn 441161 Lt Dieter Sachse (injuried) 1./JG5 near Caen
A Fw 190 A6 "15 blue" wrkn 530923 (or 730923) Uffz Hermann grad (injuried) 4./JG26 Bernay
A Fw 190 A8 "7 blue" wrkn 170313 (or 170319) Ogfr Helmut Merten (KIA) 4./JG26 WSW Bernay

Friendly

Re: JG information needed
 

Hi.

The Summarische Verlustemeldungen were reports made out that summarized the losses for a given unit in a spreadsheet-like report. These consisted of two types of sheets, one for the aircraft losses, and one for the personnel losses. Please see the images below.

http://www.ahs.no/discussion_images/...1 Seite 02.jpg

http://www.ahs.no/discussion_images/...3 Seite 01.jpg

I have entered these in my database, and as my website has several language options, I have also translated the categories used, the original german ones shown below with the english translation:

1
durch Feindeinwirkung vermißt
Missing due to enemy action

2
durch Feindeinwirkung auf Feindflug durch Flakbeschuß total
Destroyed by anti-aircraft artillery on operational flight

3
durch Feindeinwirkung auf Feindflug durch Flakbeschuß beschädigt
Damaged by anti-aircraft artillery on operational flight

4
durch Feindeinwirkung auf Feindflug durch Bordwaffenbeschuß total mit Feindbeobachtung
Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft on operational flight, observed by enemy

5
durch Feindeinwirkung auf Feindflug durch Bordwaffenbeschuß total ohne Feindbeobachtung
Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft on operational flight, not observed by enemy

6
durch Feindeinwirkung auf Feindflug durch Bordwaffenbeschuß beschädigt mit Feindbeobachtung
Damaged by gunfire from enemy aircraft on operational flight, observed by enemy

7
durch Feindeinwirkung auf Feindflug durch Bordwaffenbeschuß beschädigt ohne Feindbeobachtung
Damaged by gunfire from enemy aircraft on operational flight, not observed by enemy

8
durch Feindeinwirkung auf Feindflug durch Infanteriebeschuß total
Destroyed by gunfire from enemy infantry on operational flight

9
durch Feindeinwirkung auf Feindflug durch Infanteriebeschuß beschädigt
Damaged by gunfire from enemy infantry on operational flight

10
durch Feindeinwirkung auf eigenem Kriegsgebiet (Bodenverluste) durch Bombenabwurf total
Destroyed on the ground by enemy bomb

11
durch Feindeinwirkung auf eigenem Kriegsgebiet (Bodenverluste) durch Bombenabwurf
beschädigt Damaged on the ground by enemy bomb

12
durch Feindeinwirkung auf eigenem Kriegsgebiet (Bodenverluste) durch Bordwaffenbeschuß total
Destroyed on the ground by gunfire from enemy aircraft

13
durch Feindeinwirkung auf eigenem Kriegsgebiet (Bodenverluste) durch Bordwaffenbeschuß beschädigt
Damaged on the ground by gunfire from enemy aircraft

14
durch Feindeinwirkung auf eigenem Kriegsgebiet (Bodenverluste) durch Erdbeschuß
total Destroyed on the ground by enemy gunfire from ground forces

15
durch Feindeinwirkung auf eigenem Kriegsgebiet (Bodenverluste) durch Erdbeschuß beschädigt
Damaged on the ground by enemy gunfire from ground forces

16
durch Feindeinwirkung Sonstige total
Destroyed by other enemy action

17
durch Feindeinwirkung Sonstige beschädigt
Damaged by other enemy action

18
insgesamt durch Feindeinwirkung total
Total number of aircraft destroyed by enemy action

19 insgesamt durch Feindeinwirkung beschädigt
Total number of aircraft damaged by enemy action

20
ohne Feindeinwirkung mit Feindauftrag total
Destroyed without enemy action on operational flight

21
ohne Feindeinwirkung mit Feindauftrag beschädigt
Damaged without enemy action on operational flight

22
ohne Feindeinwirkung ohne Feindauftrag (Betriebsverluste) total
Destroyed without enemy action on non-operational flight

23
ohne Feindeinwirkung ohne Feindauftrag (Betriebsverluste) beschädigt
Damaged without enemy action on non-operational flight

24
insgesamt ohne Feindeinwirkung total
Total number of aircraft destroyed without enemy action

25
insgesamt ohne Feindeinwirkung beschädigt
Total number of aircraft damaged without enemy action

I used the english translation in my previous post.

Regards,
Andreas

Re: JG information needed
 

Andreas, looks outstanding. What is the completness and coverage of those reports? Also, 50% overclaim is something about average for intense scraps.

Re: JG information needed
 

Coverage:
All units reporting to the GenQu 6 Abt under the designation Fliegende Verbände. Thus all frontline units and several others in duty at the front.

Timespan:
21.06.1941 through January 1945.

Regards,
Andreas

Re: JG information needed
 

Those docs are also available for april 40 campaign nd French-campaign 40,

remi

Re: JG information needed
 

Thank you very much. Very complete explination. Thank you for the explination and the posting.

Walt

Re: JG information needed
 

Andreas
Have you compared those data against individual loss returns?

Re: JG information needed
 

Hi, Franek.

Yes I have. They are mostly one to one if no clerical error is involved.

I mostly use the Summarische Verlustemeldungen to get a brief overview of what losses a unit has sustained, what losses were recorded on a specific date or in a specific period of time, see for example screenshot below, where search criteria is losses for JG 5 between 01.10.1943 and 31.10.1943:

http://www.ahs.no/discussion_images/...e-jg5-test.gif

In my database all summary losses can be connected to a detailed loss record, and the script will then change the background color of the number of aircraft column and making this into a link that will show the appropriate loss when clicked on. Here they are blue, indicating that the corresponding detailed loss information is available in the database.

I have also used the records to make statistical overviews of losses.

Regards,
Andreas

Re: JG information needed
 

Hello Andreas
So I understand that these monthly returns were prepared at RLM based on GQ6 returns for some statistical purposes. I would say, perspective of filing some gaps in 1944 is very tempting. May I have a couple of questions by PM?
Anyway, we are still lacking a completely different set of losses than a compilation of GQ6. Is there no technical diary of any of the unit available?

Re: JG information needed
 

GQ6 is far to be so worst as you are thinking, recouped with NVM is
"quite ""perfect, troubles is with locations nd sometimes the causes,
for med.area difficult to say sometimes if the dates given are those of the "accident" or the one of the report, minor casualties could missed, but in a whole the one is interested with the losses hv to begin with the GQ6, it give him-her / not so much/ the basic frame up to him to complete as bette as he can
for 1939/1940 the documents produced by Andreas, are not so clear but they exist

remi

Re: JG information needed
 

Remi
I have a direct comparison of RAF loss lists and documents. Indeed, the losses missing from GQ6 may be substantial, though most of them would be in damaged category.
I have no doubt that Andreas' work is neccesary but I doubt if it will get close to the reality without another sets of documents.

Re: JG information needed
 

Franek

may we hv just a little sample ????

remi

Re: JG information needed
 

Remi
What do you mean by sample? A complete set of material losses of PAF 1940-47 (equivalent of GQ6 records) does mention only one loss of Polish Fighting Team, the one in which pilot was lost. Actually, there were some more aircraft lost, due to combat and non-combat damages. Also there were substantial inaccuracies.
In regard of more general sample - please reffer to 2 TAF volumes - authors mention that non-British, RAF subordinated units sufferred more casualties. It should be read that due to more documents being available, it was possible to make a much more comprehensive research and to find more details than available to average British unit.

Re: JG information needed
 

Sorry, I hv understood that your examples refer to GQ6/ At least in the brit.docs you hv all fatal casualties ???

Re: JG information needed
 

My brother Unteroffizier Gerhard Veltjens, Richthofen Geschwader II, crashed trying to land his over-revving FW 190. It burst into flames, but he managed to crawl out. He died of burns a few days later: 8 April 1944. What was the actual date of the crash?
Nick

Re: JG information needed
 

Nick: I have FjU Gerhard Veltjens of 11/JG 2 crashing his FW 190 A-7, Wk Nr 170005 at Cormeilles on 8 Apr 44 and then dying 9 May 44?

Re: JG information needed
 

Hi Andreas,

Very informative. Please accept my apoligies for being so long in thanking you. I have to admit that I completely forgot this thread. Again, a belated thanks.

Walt