Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

I would love to Marc, but also a new account didn't work out :( Guess it is not meant to be..

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

did you try logging in with facebook for the flikr picyure album?

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Ready to send the requested pictures via e-mail. Please contact me off board

Cheers
Marc

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Hi Oberst,
I tried to log in via Flickr/Yahoo directly and via Google. Two different accounts. I closed my Facebook account some months ago (but that's another topic). Maybe it's some kind of country IP issue like with ebay.com and it's nasty swastikas, but Flickr cannot be dodged so easily (I tried). I have no further idea...

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Ebay bans Historic fotos with Swastika's?? Why? That seems pretty stupid to me.

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Hi Oberst,
ebay in Germany bans auctions with photos showing swastikas in it. So normally you are not able to access them from a german IP. That's also the reason why swastikas are almost always photoshopped or made unseeable in german WWII photo auctions.
It's a legal issue formulated in § 86 of the german Strafgesetzbuch. In short: The old NSDAP and similar organisations are anticonstitutional, so one is forbidden to "promote" their symbols, ideas etc. Exceptions are made for civic enlightment, arts, sciences etc.
Basically, in the eyes of the german state and many people on ebay, what we do or what interests us is not educational, but blatant national socialist propaganda. Now one can be deeply ashamed and pray for forgiveness in some hidden corner in the forest and never ever look at Luftwaffe airplane photos again OR - you can just set the language settings in Internet Explorer to "English (US)". Problem solved.

Regards,
Christian

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Aaah, Thank you Pilot,

I didn't know that as I'm not sure to have (or to have seen) one Erla Bf109G-10 picture taken from the right side. Until that drawing - and my question - It was obvious for me that it was the same BOTH sides since they did care to make a tool to produce that flat left panel... Quite ridiculous!
Same thing on Erla build K-4 ????

Tschüss, Franck.

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Franck, there are plenty of photos available showing the starboard side of Erla-G-10s (won't say where to avoid self-promotion...:D).

At any rate the same applied also the few K-4s made by Erla, and this follows pure logic: they had taken so much time and trouble to redesign the frontal part of their G-10s that it would have been sheer nonsense to use a different solution for the K-4... (and nonsense had little room in German brains!)

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

I'll ask, have a link for your website? :D

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

It is not a website... sorry

You have a PM.

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Well not in production engineering, at least. They had plenty of room for nonsense in politics, economics and strategy!

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Of course, Nick. I took for granted to refer to technical matters...

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Gents,

Regarding the camouflage colours of Erla Bf 109 G-10/R6s, perhaps it might be of value to know the dates of production for aircraft in the respective 15XXXX and 49XXXX werknummer series. Does such information exist?

I ask this as I believe that two colour photos exist of an Erla-built G-10, this being the kite "ge.2" of KG(J) 27 with the large green and white karoband that was discovered at Kaufbeuren. These were first published by the late Jeff Ethell in his book "Fighter Command". My images are prints made from Kodachrome copies of the originals sent to me by Jeff.

The first photo is an enlargement from a larger scene of the aircraft dump. Salient features include the Type 110 cowling, and twin-tabbed rudder. The KG(J) 27 karoband and yellow '2' are clearly visible, as a white '52' on the fin, likely an Überführungflugnummer.

The second image allows a clearer view of the rear cowling area and tip of the rudder. There appears to be a modest amount of mottling on the fuselage side in RLM 75 and possibly RLM 83 under the cockpit. Along the fuselage spine 75 is clearly evident, as is a far lighter grey that I interpret as RLM 77 above the balkenkreuz. Indeed, on the right side of the larger original image for the first photo is a similarly 75/77/76 camouflaged Bf 109 K-4 "sw.<1+I" of Stab./III./JG 53 (335XXX series?).

Exactly when this aircraft was built can only be guessed at as the werknummer is unknown and other determining features such as the canopy, radio mast, wheel size, wing bumps, etc. are not visible. I suspect that it might be a very early production example since the rudder's camouflage colours match the rest of the aircraft. Later aircraft appear to have had a greater propensity of being fitted with subcontracted components that were painted in different patterns and colours.

Combined with the aircraft physical attributes, the temporal relationship with werknummern might offer clues to determining the respective camouflage colours and schemes, and assist in identifying other aircraft in those situations were photos reveal only portions of a subject aircraft. I welcome further thoughts on the comments presented here.

Cheers,

David

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Very nice pictures David. Your particular machines camo scheme seems to be bang on with Me 109G-10 W.Nr.490 655.

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

David,

Your point and pictures are most interesting. The second shot is quite unique by it's sharpness and preserved colors.

I won't be able to answer your query about production dates; I can only notice that the type of camouflage shown by "Gelbe 2", KG(J) 27 at Kaufbeuren does show on a majority of Erla machines, be it in the 150 - 152, 490 - 491 and 770 blocks. The ones known to me and illustrated by pictures are listed here as follows:

A: W.Nr. 150 XXX - 152 XXX

1. Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 150'816 "Schwarze 4", 6./JG 2, Langensalza, June 1945.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625208099917

2. Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr.150'87. "Weisse 15", Germany, summer 1945. Source: Noro 2009, p. 173.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625208099917

3.Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 150 889 "Weisse 7", 1./JG 27, Risstissen, May 1945. Prien, Rodeike and Stemmer 1998, p. 506.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625208099917

4. Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 151'035, "Grüne 2", I./JG 301, Germany 1945. Source: expired Tonelli auction.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625208099917/

5. Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr 151 567, "White 13" 1./JG 300, Wunstorf , April 1945. Source: Noro, H. (2009) "LO+ST", Dainippon Kaiga, p. 33
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625208099917/

6.Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 152'043 "Weisse 57", Central Germany 1945, Hlidebrandt 1988 p.17
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625208099917


B. W.Nr. 490 xxx - 491 xxx

1. Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 490'137, "Weisse 14", 15./JG 51, Hptm Waldemar Wagler, Rinkaby, May 1945. Source: forcedlandingcollection.se
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625208099917

2. Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 490 383 "Rote 17", Lt. Josef Jordan, 6./JG 300, before 14 January 1945. Prien and Rodeike 1995, p. 158.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625208099917

3. Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 490 621 "Bianco 3-11" 3a. Sq. I. Gruppo Caccia, Lonate Pozzolo, April 1945. D'Amico and Valentini 1985, p. 98
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625208099917

4. Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 490 629 "Gelbe 7", Lt. Werner Petereit, 7./JG 3, Garz, 11 March 1945. Prien and Stemmer 1996, p. 386.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625208099917/

5. Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr.490 642 "Rote 2", 2./JG 300, Pilot Fw Gzik.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625208099917/

6. Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 490 655 "Gelbe 24", Lt. Anton Wöffen, Staka 6./JG 27, near Rheinberg, Germany, 11 March 1945. Source: http://www.asisbiz.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625208099917/

7. Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 490 755 "Blaue 1", 8./JG 3, Garz, 1945. Prien and Stemmer 1996, p. 390.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625208099917/

8. Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 491 213 "Grüne 12", Ofhr. Bruno Klostermann, 11./JG300, Jüterbog-Waldlager, Autmun 1944. Lorant et Goyat 2005, p. 115.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625208099917/

9. Bf 109 G-10, W.Nr. 491 320, "12 nero", serg. Carlo Cavagliano, 4a Squadriglia, II Gruppo Caccia, Northern Italy, before 12 February 1945. Beale, D'Amico and Valentini 1996, p. 169.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625208099917/

10. Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 491 354 "Giallo 2-2", 2a Sq. I. Gruppo Caccia, Lonate Pozzolo, April 1945. D'Amico and Valentini 1985, p. 98.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625208099917/

11. Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 491 356, Magg. Adriano Visconti, I. Gruppo Caccia, Lonate Pozzolo, April 1945. D'Amico and Valentini 1985, p. 92.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625208099917/


C. W.Nr. 770 xxx

1. Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 770 293 "Gelbe 67", Rinkaby, 12 April 1945. Hitchcock 1977, p. 10.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625208099917/

2. Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 770 313 "Schwarze 3", Gatow, 1945. Source: Bergstrom and Pegg 2005, p. 188.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625208099917/

3. Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr.770 376 "Schwarze 9", NAGr 15, Liberec 1945. Source: Bergstrom and Pegg 2005, p. 186.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625208099917/



Actually, the ones with late war standardized tails which seem common with the K-4 camouflage pattern are very rare. The only one I know about is Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 491 300, Gardelegen 14 April 1945. Luftwaffe im Focus 2, p. 34.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625208099917

There is to my knowledge at least another Erla G-10 color picture extent, found here:
Bf 109 G-10, Erla type camouflage, Germany, 1945. Source: WW2incolour.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream

Hoping for a timely publication on those Erla built G-10's ;-)))

Cheers
Marc

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Most of images are Private...

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Oups!

Checking and switching;-))

...and done!

Cheers
Marc

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Bondì Ferdinando, it saluto!

I didn't say the contrary; just said I've never seen and may be I got some of these but without the right explanation...
Whatever, I'm still ouidjat-without-books-home, you know that; just internet loadings...

Thanks again.

Arvëdse! Franck.

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Thank you very much Marc for your update. This image is well known and a bit doubtful about the very dark color used for camouflage:

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6165/...538f233b_o.jpg

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

A couple of thoughts here, I agree that most Erla built G-10's seems to have a freely mottled tailplanes rather than the stenciled ones often seen on Mtt Regensburg aircraft.

The JG300 aircraft you're showing are all G-14/AS aircraft, Red 17 and Green 12 were built by Mtt.Regensburg and Red 2 is a very rare Erla built Bf-109G-14/AS. So the Wrk.Nr's are wrong

Yellow 2 seems to have the smaller fuselagecross so it's not from the first batch/batches produced as those had standard fuselage crosses.

Cheers / Anders

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Hej Anders,

Thanks for confirming those identities issues;

The source for those errors is a faulty method I adopted to cross-check between published photographs and known W.Nr. numbers in the losses published, in this case by Lorant an Goyat 2005.

Thanks for addressing those points, I will rework accordingly the database. I will be glad for any other pointer regarding other "improbable" W.Nr.'s, my aim being to offer the best available data, based on available photographs.

Cheers
Marc

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

One thing I'll say about the Mtt-Reg built G-10 machines (130 XXX batch), they are consistant in colours & paint scheme. From what I've seen anyways. I also starting to sway to the side of most were RLM 74/75 rather then RLM 75/82(83?).

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Hi all,
the Bf 109 tail units were fabricated by subcontractors; tailfin and rudder being produced by different wood-working factories to include also these industries into the Nazi war effort.
Those parts were pre-fabricated completely including camo and markings as can be seen in Merrick´s "Luftwaffe camo and markings" p.42 and D'Amico and Valentini's "Camo and markings of the ANR" p.117. Very often fin and rudder did not fit together concerning colour and colouring techniques as can be seen in the last example - a combination of mottled respectively stencilled camo on rudder resp. fin.
Fins with different camo were even produced side by side as can be seen on p.19 of Green's "Augsburg's Last Eagles". Fins with stencilled camo beside ones with mottled camo.
Mtt Regensburg production sites oftenly tried to compensate these different colour treatments by overspray with RLM 76.
The other point to be taken into consideration is the fact hat Mtt Regenburg wasn´t a homogenuous production site for the Bf 109G.
Fuselage production took place in "Gauting"(Hagelstadt), "Bürg"(KZ Flossenbürg) and KZ Mauthausen "Gusen").
Final assembly was in Regensburg-Obertraubling, Cham-Michelsdorf and Vilseck-Heringnohe.
Result were different camo schemes as can be seen examining the different placements of the Werknummern.
As long as it cannot be determined which Werknummern have been applied at the different production sites there will be little sense to establish any painting rules or regular schemes. Not to mention the different deliveries of the tail assembly.
Hope this helps

Regards

Roland

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Thanks for the information. Although confusing. W.Nr. 130 297 & W.Nr. 130 327 had the same camo scheme, so safe to assume 298 through 326 had the same? Made at the same sub-plant? Also, no evidence of RLM 76 overspray on either the above rudders.

Also I was under the impression that there were strick rules for painting, ie: Mtt-Reg / Erla / WNF had there own specific guidlines, and there sub-plants had to adhire by them.

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Hello Marc,

you have to be more carefull with your research before you create new myths ... not all G-10 called Erla G-10 were Erla G-10 like #2. The Wnr. is wrong ... look on the chin bulges. I can't see your pictures but I fear there are some mistakes.

Regards
Rasmussen

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

To me, what Roland wrote makes perfect (although frustrating) sense.

Unless a production list will came out, detailing which Werke Nummern were produced in which site, it is almost impossible to make sense of different details apparently suggesting separate production sites (e.g. The position where the Werke Nummern were painted on each late-Bf 109...).

Concerning Erla G-10s there was some visual difference between earlier and later examples, like the removal of the antenna mast in later examples or the presence of standard (i.e. short) tailwheel in earlier ones...

Even here however, we should be able to understand the chronology of production of the 15x.xxx series compared to the 490-491.xxx ones and to be sure of how many production sites Erla had, or even id the switch of placement of the W.Nr. From top tail to mid position (in the 490-491.xxx batches) was due to different production sites or to the time of production.

Last but not least, a short note about tail & rudders: it is extremely true that most of the cases of application of such elements delivered from subcontractors and painted differently from the factory's camouflage, occurred at MTT and this already from late Bf 109 G-6 production (several of the tall-ruddered examples of G-6s supplied to Finland and Italy shows clear examples of this as well of the hasty 76 overspray to tone down the difference).

It is also true, that the much fewer cases in which this happened to Erla aircraft there was no overspray applied.

It would be extremely interesting to ascertain how many of these subcontractors there were and how was divided their supply to the various factories. As much interesting as finding copy of the painting directives they had received, since their finish appears amazingly consistent from early 1944 up to the end of the war...

Maybe this is only a foolish wish, but I'm somehow sure that such informations do exist and that sooner or later could be found.

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

In the book JaPo Bf 109G-10, They say that Mtt-Reg produced a small number of G-10's totaling 121 aircraft, and were allotted W.Nr.130 000 - 130 500, between October 1944 and January 1945. So its fairly certain to say they were all manufactured in the same plant in my humble opinion.

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Hello Ferdinando,

IIRC we discussed detailed these things in the old 109Lair (now an dead forum) 10 years (or longer ) before. In those days I wrote that the position of Werknummer (on Erla a/c's) switched from the higher position to the position in the middle of the tail in the middle of December 1944 (independent from the production site). The same was it with the tail wheel (short/ longer) in February 1945. In most cases it depended from prerequisites of production and not from production site (regarding Erla).

Quite simple --- there is an USSBS from Erla.

Best regards
Rasmussen

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Thanks Rasmussen for reporting again here that "old" info (i did remember it too, but one thing is quoting someone else's info from memory and quite a different one if the the original owner of the info reports it personally...;)).

I'm also very glad to hear that such subcontractors' listing do exist (I guess that it would looks great in some publication), it would be perfect also to find (and know) the painting directives they received, because - as I have already said - the consistency of their application is truly remarkable.

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Agreed Rasmussen!

That's why I chose to go public: to be a common intelligence around this so intricate topic of late war Bf 109's... Thanks to the inputs of you all, this free for all fledgeling visual Encyclopedia of all W.Nr. documented Bf 109 G-6 through K-4 is gaining verified and solid ground.

Thanks again!
Marc

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Working on the database, I just noticed I forgot to post the following Erla G-10 among the late war standardized camouflage patterns tails:

Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr.152 354 "Schwarze 2", I./JG 4, Kleinhau, 18 December 1944. Hildebrandt 1988, p. 5
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream

Cheers
Marc

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Marc,

how I wrote --- be careful with captions taken from other books! Your "Erla G-10" with "late war standardized camouflage pattern tails" is the Bf 109G14/AS W.Nr. 782354 "black 2" from 14./ JG 4, Oblt. Ernst Scheufele. Beside this ... an Erla W.Nr. 152 354 didn't exist.

Regards
Rasmussen

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

The autographed fotos of Fhr. Theo Nau's machine of 7./JG 11, is actually a Bf 109G-14/AS, W.Nr.784 ??? , 'gelbe 18'.

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Rasmussen,

Thanks again for correcting me; I'm deeply indebted to all researchers who help correcting the content of this database.
Looking also forward to be one of your first avid reader for your upcoming Erla book;-)


Oberst,

Thanks for your precision.

Cheers
Marc

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

The crashed enemy aircraft reports for the following aircraft report different marking colors:

G-14 WN460520 Blue 11 (not Black) I have 2 additional views of this aircraft.

G-14 WN610783 Red 11 (not Yellow) I have an additional right side view of this aircraft.

von Lutz

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

Thanks Richard for your corrections!

I will add them later tonight with due credit

Cheers
Marc

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

heres an interesting rudder picture. RLM 76 it looks like(?). I think this is a G-14.

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

The rudder is angled and fully hit by the sunlight at a rather low height... Not the best conditions to determine anything, IMHO.

And yes, it is a classical G-14.

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

It could be with easy RLM76...

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 

It's an Erla built Bf109G-14 and it's either quite dirty or maybe it's the low light in combination with the semigloss paint that makes the 76/75/74 camoflage loose it's contrast. The rudder as well as the rest of the tail should be RLM76 mottled in the topcolors. Although hard to spot it looks like the typical "spotted mottle" used on Erla 109's at least in 1943 and 1944.