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-   -   13/IV , Einsatz in der Reichsverteidigung und im Westen 1.1. bis 31.12.1944 (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=54017)

Rudi Penker 21st May 2019 14:33

13/IV , Einsatz in der Reichsverteidigung und im Westen 1.1. bis 31.12.1944
 
https://www.sound-bm.com/de/die-jagd...-31121944.html

Jochen Prien 30th May 2019 15:32

Re: 13/IV , Einsatz in der Reichsverteidigung und im Westen 1.1. bis 31.12.1944
 
Gentlemen,
I have just been informed by Jörg Rogge that delivery of JFV 13/IV will commence on 19 June 2019; apparently another delay has been caused by problems at the book-binder. I apologize for this inconvenience.

JFV 13/V is ready for the publisher and will go there next week. I hope that this will be a smoother operation than 13/IV. Part 13/V will comprise JG 7, JGr. 10, JGs 11, 26, 27, 53 and 54 and will be about 500 pages and some 210 photos. Date of release is up to Jörg Rogge but I hope it will be this year.

JFV 13/VI, the final one of Part 13, is about 80 % ready; it will comprise JGs 76, 77, 200, 300, 301, 302 and 400 as well as several miscellaneous units which at one point or another took part in the Defense of the Reich in 1944, such as e.g. the Einsatzteile of JGr. Süd, West and Ost, JGs 101 pp, Erprobungskommandos etc. The final chapter will deal with fighter operations over Norway as far as they were directed against the Western allies. As of now the volume will comprise some 350 pages and around 200 photos.

KR

Jochen Prien

Jochen Prien 25th June 2019 12:34

Re: 13/IV , Einsatz in der Reichsverteidigung und im Westen 1.1. bis 31.12.1944
 
Problems without end with JFV Vol. 13/IV, apparently the clapped volume of the series; upon inspecting the first copies it became evident, that there were several shortcomings which necessitate a complete work-over of the whole batch as this could not be accepted in its present form. This in turn results in yet another delay of the release date which is now scheduled for week 28 or 29 of 2019. I can only apologize. Jörg Rogge will notify those who have ordered their copies from abroad separately.

If this goes on we will see Vol 13/V out before 13/IV will finally be released.

KR

Jochen Prien

Jochen Prien 22nd July 2019 13:32

Re: 13/IV , Einsatz in der Reichsverteidigung und im Westen 1.1. bis 31.12.1944
 
Gentlemen,
believe it or not - Vol. 13/IV is out now after seemingly endless problems on practically every level. The result of the re-print is technically very good and I hope you will be satisfied with the contents. For those who have ordered their copies from Rogge Verlag or Christian Schmidt the books should be on their way and be with you very soon.

No exact dates for Vol. 13/V yet but I will keep you posted.

KR

Jochen Prien

edwest2 22nd July 2019 20:16

Re: 13/IV , Einsatz in der Reichsverteidigung und im Westen 1.1. bis 31.12.1944
 
Jochen,


Thank you for your timely updates.


Best,
Ed

Nokose 22nd July 2019 21:45

Re: 13/IV , Einsatz in der Reichsverteidigung und im Westen 1.1. bis 31.12.1944
 
Greatly anticipating volume 13/V in this series for JG 7 and JG 54 victories and losses stats.

Peglar 24th August 2019 09:53

Re: 13/IV , Einsatz in der Reichsverteidigung und im Westen 1.1. bis 31.12.1944
 
Dear friends, in the book "The German Air Force 1934 to 1945 - Part 13 - Operation in the Reich Defense and in the West" is on page 221 on any of the three illustrated photos "Karl Ruppel", who at the Bodenplatte Einsatz am 01. January 1945 at Mützenich and resting in the cemetery Vossenack, to see. Also, his name is Richard Ruppel and so he is not missing. Uffz. Richard Ruppel was a member of the 11./JG 2.

ouidjat 30th August 2019 18:23

Re: 13/IV , Einsatz in der Reichsverteidigung und im Westen 1.1. bis 31.12.1944
 
Hi Gents,


A friend of mine sent me a scan and said:
"It is quite funny what we get for our hard-earned 75 euro, in 2019" (sic)
;)


Regards,
Franck.

Rasmussen 30th August 2019 19:25

Re: 13/IV , Einsatz in der Reichsverteidigung und im Westen 1.1. bis 31.12.1944
 
In the LRG forum I have written something of this only from the point of view of Erla Maschinenwerk GmbH ...

production figures

p.10...Bf109G-6...not mentioned in the book...regarding official accountings with RLM from January-December 1944: 1635 a/c
p.19...Bf109G-14...not mentioned in the book...regarding official accountings with RLM from January-December 1944: 1663 a/c (to name target numbers for this time is difficult because they changed with each new plan or the corrections)
p.20/footnote 65...Bf109G-14/AS...123 a/c (LP226/2, 16.10.1944)...correct: 135 a/c(LP227, 06.12.1944)...the additional deliveries are also confirmed by other documents so the footnote 65 ("...; danach bis zu diesem Zeitpunkt alle Maschinen abgeliefert.") isn't complete precise because the last 12 G-14/AS were delivered in October (9 a/c) and November (3 a/c)...conclusions by means of a single document are always uncertain for this period
p.26...Bf109K-4...not mentioned in the book...at least documented are 2 a/c (W.Nr.570362 by document and 570375 by photo)
p.28...Bf109G-10/AS...not mentioned in the book...This designation is an hoax. It was never mentioned in any single factory.document---the Erla Maschinenwerk GmbH delivered G-10 and G-10/R6, in 1944 a total of 397 G-10 and 215 G-10/R6.
p.30...Bf109G-10...The drawing is totally wrong --- showing an WNF/Mtt.-G10.

The G-AS story
p.12, footnote 52...The mentioned, planned construction numbers are to be updated as follows ("Flugzeugprogramm (Umbau) SoA F2 (Stand vom 01.04.1944)"): Erla VII--- 60 G-5/U2/AS (Serie Erla), 100 G-5/R2/AS (Serie Erla), 11 G-6/AS (Reparatur Werk VII), 1 G-6/U4/AS (Serie WNF), 105 G-6/U2/AS (Serie Leipzig/ Reparatur Werk VII), REWE--- 132 G-6/U4/AS (Serie WNF), Mimetall--- 98 G-6/U2/AS (Serie Erla), Blohm&Voss--- 20 G-6/U4/AS (Serie WNF), 80 G-6/U2/AS (Serie Erla) --- planned for B&V: April 5, May 10, June 15, July 20, August 20, total: 607

p.12, footnote 54..."Die Bf109G-5/R2/AS waren zur Überbrückung...Diese Planung wurde jedoch in der Praxis umgeworfen."...This is wrong. It had actually started to build the planned machines. Regarding "Industrielieferplan Umbauprogramm SoA F2 (Stand vom 6.8.44)" were delivered to 31.June 1944 a total of 16 machines. For another 65 machines, the engine delivery was not yet guaranteed. In addition, after the withdrawal of the Germans from Antwerp on 02/03.September 1944 several G-5/R2/AS were captured such as the W.Nr. 110543, 110545, 110547 and others. To correct or complete are also the production figures. According to the same source the following machines were rebuilt until June 31, 1944: Erla VII--- 67 G-5/AS (the following 9 a/c unpressurized), 16 G-5/R2/AS, Mimetall - 130 G-6/U4/AS (2 machines were destroyed and deleted from program) --- the other numbers are identical

The Bf109K-story
p.23..."Der Serienbau der Baureihe K-2 sollte ab Februar 1944 bei Messerschmitt, Erla und WNF anlaufen..." ... here is to be corrected: Regarding "Mitteilung Nr.86 an 5400 vom 25.1.44, Bezugnahme: Mitteilung Nr.28 an 5400 vom 8.1.44 und Besprechung der Arbeitsguppe 109 am 21.1. in Regensburg" should Erla built 1160 K-2 as K-2/R3 (with DB605A because available).
p.23..."..., während ab Juli 1944 die bei Erla anlaufende druckbelüftete Bf109K-1 die Bf109G-5 bei den Verbänden ersetzen sollte."... Regarding the same source the start of the production of the a/c should be already in May or June 1944.
p.23... Wrong is the sentence "Allen drei Baureihen gemeinsam war der Einbau des DB 605A Motors." Here the same source: "Baureihe K-1 besagt, dass es sich um eine druckdichte Bf109 mit MK108 und Motor DB605D handelt." and "Bauunterlagen für K-2 sind grundsätzlich auf Einbau des Motors DB605D abgestellt."
p.23,footnote 67 and p.26..."..., statt dessen sollte Erla allein die Baureihe G-10 fertigen." This is wrong. Since Lieferplan Pr.226/2 vom 15.7.44, "Jägerprogramm", Erla was always involved in the production of Bf109K-4 or K-4/R6 (first with the note that the machines are delivered as G-10 because of missing specifications, from LP226/2 dated from 15.9.9144 with 2010 planned K-4/R6...January 1945-September 1945). Documentend is this in Aktennotiz Nr.183 an 5400 vom 5.Dezember 1944, bezugnehmend auf die Programm-Besprechung beim Rüstungsstab mit F2 am 4.Dezember 1944 where the production of the K-6 (later K-6/R6) was provided with withdrawal of the K-4 production to September 1945.There is also extensive correspondence with suppliers on K-4 components. In addition, IIRC photos taken in the Leipzig branch Plauen show photos K-4 fuselages. The lack of large-scale production was IMHO, in addition to the reasons mentioned, primarily to justify the fact that Erla began in January with the conversion to the production of Ta152.

some more mistakes
p.19..."Zahlreiche Maschinen sowohl von Erla als auch...und erhielten die Baureihenbezeichnung G-14/U4."...correct: Erla didn't deliver a single G-14/U4.
p.27, 28..."Die ersten bei Erla gebauten Maschinen mussten wegen nicht ausreichender Ausbringung an DB605D Motoren mit dem DB605AS ausgestattet werden,..." and text in the box...This statement could not be confirmed by (known to me) documents. The maximum number of G-10 with DB605AS is expected to be around 70, of which 3 Italian machines have been documented so far.
p.30..."...andere (G-10), auch solche mit AS-Motor, hatten eine untere Motorhaube mit den beiden kennzeichnenden Kinn-Beulen,..."...a picture would be nice :)
p.30..."Uneinheitlich war auch die Reifengrösse des Hauptfahrwerks,..."...At least for Erla this isn't correct. All a/c's with the bigger tires were delivered from the end of January/early February 1945 (G-10 and G-14).

conclusion
This text was "knitted with a very hot needle" and does not really match the previous level of this series. What a pity...

ouidjat 1st September 2019 10:23

Re: 13/IV , Einsatz in der Reichsverteidigung und im Westen 1.1. bis 31.12.1944
 
Yep, to make short that's what I meant.
Thanks for the details Rasmussen. :)
Regards,
Franck.
PS: Production lists and date was given in last JCM book too and was accessible to all, since long; without talking about TOCH threads and Facebook ... Si si !

Rasmussen 1st September 2019 13:32

Re: 13/IV , Einsatz in der Reichsverteidigung und im Westen 1.1. bis 31.12.1944
 
Whereby also in the JCM book some mistakes occur with the work numbers / production blocks ...beside technical errors in the text.

edwest2 1st September 2019 23:48

Re: 13/IV , Einsatz in der Reichsverteidigung und im Westen 1.1. bis 31.12.1944
 
Then the sharing of information and cooperation are in order. Corrections are then made for the benefit of all.

Rasmussen 2nd September 2019 21:15

Re: 13/IV , Einsatz in der Reichsverteidigung und im Westen 1.1. bis 31.12.1944
 
Again from my old thread (2016) in LRG (additions and corrections):

p.4:
The formulation of the task to develop an new fighter was done by an "Entwicklungsgruppe" in December 1933. In February 1934 the Technische Amt of RLM addressed the specifications for the industry. In October 1934 the mock-up of the Bf109a was ready ...
p.12:
D-IIBA, W.Nr.808, the damage were 30%, the a/c returned to Ausgburg for repairs
p.19,20:
regarding "Flugzeugentwicklungsprogramm LCIIb" from 01.10.1937 were sent to Spain V3, V4 and V6 but not V5
p.22,31:
Fieseler in "Liepzig"----What's that? Fieseler produced in Kassel, far from Leipzig.
p.28:
regarding the same program (p.19) the V15 and V15a got an DB601 (called "Muster E1"), the V16 is mentioned with an Jumo210D as "Waffenversuchsträger"
p.40:
the "Baureihenbezeichnung Bf109" from 01.11.1942 called the "Bf109E-6" without the suffix "N" because the DB601N was the standard engine
p.43:
an E-7/R3 was't an official "Baureihe" regarding "Baureihenbezeichnung" - there were U-designations only
p.44:
the mentioned 106 E-7 produced by Erla were E-7/N
p.44:
the Slovakian "white 7" was the W.Nr.3317 (source: Railich, "13.(slow.)/JG 52")
p.45:
The "tropicalization" kits weren't mounted on the assembly lines but at first on repair industry and/or LZA Erding and Fl.H.Schleißheim. On June 1941 for example Erla didn't delivered E-version more.
p.58: "Two series were produced by the WNF, one with 137 examples (of the 170 planned, WNr 5621-5790) and ..."---IMHO this batch was delivered by Mtt.AG (see p.59)
p.59: "The 33 planes lacking from the WNF delivery would be produced by Mtt-AG as Bf109F-2s (WNr5756-5790) ..."---we find in the logbook Riedmeier the W.Nr.5671 (RC+EN) or W.Nr.5725 (ND+IN)--as an example--and in the logbook Kühnle many a/c's from the RC+Ex-batch, all in Regensburg and called as "F-1". (an little addition: the W.Nr.5751 and 5753 are called by Riedmeier "F-2" too.)
p.60:
By Erla the first Bf109F-2 was delivered in Dezember 1940 and not in February 1941, in January 1941 it were 5 and 21 in February 1941. In April 1941 were completed 188 and not 189. In June 1941 followed 30 a/c's because in May wasn't accepted not one. They had problems with delivery of "Randkappen" and problems with the engine.
p.61:
In June 1941 AGO hadn't completed 378 machines but 287. The last Bf109F-2 left the AGO-factory in November 1941.
p.64:
The designation "F-2/U1" isn't for sure "pure invention". In the "Baureihenbezeichnung" this is an a/c with "2 MG131 statt 2MG17". But ... an F-2/R5 there doesn't exist like the F-2/Z too.
p.65:
The F-3 not "seems to have been the same as the Bf109F-1" ... it was the same as the Bf109F-1 ... with an DB601E.
p.66:
The first F-4 left Erla in May 1941 not June.
p.81:
Regarding "Baureihenbezeichnung" was G-1/R1 "wie G-1 jedoch erleichterte Ausführung ohne Rückenpanzerung, ohne Abwurf - und Reichweitenaußenanlage, mit ungeschützten Blechbehälter" ... means not the Jabo-version, an R2 and R3 isn't mentioned
p.90:
The first G-5 left Erla im May 1943 not March 1943.
p.91:
The simplified cabin, the so-called "sichtverbesserte Kabinenhaube" (or better known as "Erla-Haube"), wasn't proposed by Erla only produced ... Erla was an so-called "Nachbaubetrieb" without an construction/development office. They had an "Änderungsabteilung" for modifications not more not less. The cabin was developed by Mtt.AG in Regensburg.
p.94:
The regular production of G-5 began in April/ May 1943 and stopped March 1944 (some a/c's were delivered in June but this were machines on repair in Antwerpen after the Big Week-raid from 20.02.1944 in Leipzig). In July/August followed an batch of G-5/R2/AS found by allied troops on 04 September 1944 in Antwerpen.
p.100/101:
The W.Nr.463141 wasn't an "official" G-6MW50 but an regular G-14. It was new built in October 1944 and sold as "G-14" to RLM--- nothing with repair. (What's an "simplified" cowling?) I'd guess it's one of the machines were delivered as trainer without the MW50-system (I believe it was in October - I must search for the document.)
p.106:
Most of the "official" G-6MW50 you find in the 413xxx-batch, since the 46xxxx-batch the a/c's were called "G14".
p.115:
Somewhere I have the document with the order to use the remaining G-6/U2-tubes in the following production ... nothing surprising.
p.116:
typo: 462000 not 762000
p.125:
If the W.Nr. correct then was it an G-4trop and not an G-2.
p.130:
The "two constructor's identification plates" (if the pictures with the two plates on the left site were meant) were 1.) the constructors identification plate and 2.) the well know plate for the "Änderungsstufe" (not an "Gerätenummer").
p.131:
Erla-Leipzig didn't radically redesigned the cowling...Erla produced the cowling - not more not less (see p.91).
p.133:
The curved line ended higher (not like the curved line on WNF-machines).
p.135:
The Erla G-10 got their DB605AS not in a repair shop, the a/c's were delivered "fresh" from the factory halls with this engine ... but there wasn't an official designation like "G-10/AS" that's correct.
p.168:
The batch with the W.Nr.15708 inside was delivered in July 1943 not March 1943. In the Beauvais logbook the code was PV+IB. "...destroyed during the bombing of ... , August 18; 1944." ... hmmm, regarding the logbook Beauvais he flew the a/c on September 23, 1944, in Memmingen.

W.Nr. blocks:
p.175: Bf 109B - not 301 - 475 but 284 - 418, 539 - 547, 588 - 618 (from a memo 26.08.1938 and approved by repair messages and other documents), delivery stop was in January 1938 - not December 1937 (the last Bf109B was delivered in April 1938)
p.175: Bf 109D - first a/c's were delivered in February 1938 not December 1937
p.175: Bf 109F-2 - delivery started in Dezember 1940 not in February 1941
P.176: W.Nr.17000 - 17057 not mentioned --- It were Erla - machines, W.Nr. 17001 - 17019, G-6, August 1943.
p.176: The W.Nr.26072 was an G-5 not a G-6 like W.Nr.27084 too.
p.176: He has not the slightest idea about the serial numbers 32000 - 37000 - keyword: internal Erla-Werknummer.
p.177: The first G-10 wasn't W.Nr.490 129 but 490 128.

and so on and so on ... I have neither time nor desire to pick out all the shortcomings here ...

Best regards
Rasmussen

Nokose 10th October 2019 20:54

Re: 13/IV , Einsatz in der Reichsverteidigung und im Westen 1.1. bis 31.12.1944
 
Any word on went JFV 13/V will be coming out?

Harrie 12th October 2019 13:06

Re: 13/IV , Einsatz in der Reichsverteidigung und im Westen 1.1. bis 31.12.1944
 
I would like to order teil 13/IV and live in the Netherlands ,there is a additional fee for sending wich is normal for 7,50 euro .But when i fill in the order there is a DHL charge for 25,00 euro ,so a total amount of 32,50 Euro . That is of course ridiculous ! Is there somebody in Germany nearby the german-dutch border of Dorpen [Germany] ? .
Sorry but almost 30% for transport .Maybe some point of intrest for distribution.

Regards Harrie

Maciej Góralczyk 12th October 2019 13:50

Re: 13/IV , Einsatz in der Reichsverteidigung und im Westen 1.1. bis 31.12.1944
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Harrie (Post 276193)
I would like to order teil 13/IV and live in the Netherlands ,there is a additional fee for sending wich is normal for 7,50 euro .But when i fill in the order there is a DHL charge for 25,00 euro ,so a total amount of 32,50 Euro . That is of course ridiculous ! Is there somebody in Germany nearby the german-dutch border of Dorpen [Germany] ? .
Sorry but almost 30% for transport .Maybe some point of intrest for distribution.

Regards Harrie

Try with Sound BM:
https://www.sound-bm.com/de/die-jagd...-31121944.html
or Berliner Zinnfiguren:
https://www.zinnfigur.com/Buecher-Me...1-12-1944.html

The latter shop has a flat shipping rate of 11.99 E.

Harrie 12th October 2019 14:09

Re: 13/IV , Einsatz in der Reichsverteidigung und im Westen 1.1. bis 31.12.1944
 
Hi Marcel,

Thanks for your alternative. This is a reasonable price .
So I will order by your link.
Much appreciated. Greetings from Netherlands

Harrie 12th October 2019 14:11

Re: 13/IV , Einsatz in der Reichsverteidigung und im Westen 1.1. bis 31.12.1944
 
Sorry oeps, misspeld your name Maciej


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