Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum

Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum (
-   Pre-WW2 Military and Naval Aviation (
-   -   Rudolf Windisch Air to Air Victories (

Edward L. Hsiao 23rd October 2017 00:06

Rudolf Windisch Air to Air Victories

I remember reading somewhere in one of the "Over The Front" magazines,a person commented that Leutnant Rudolf Windisch's 20+ WWI air-to-air victories didn't matched up to known Allied losses over the Western Front. How serious was Windisch's victories being disputed? I read that most of his victories were disputed.

Edward L. Hsiao

Stig Jarlevik 24th October 2017 12:19

Re: Rudolf Windisch Air to Air Victories

I know nothing about Windisch or his supposed 'dishonesty' but since he basically spent his whole career fighting the French, I guess it is up to them to tell us how and where each and every aircraft of theirs were lost. I doubt they are capable of doing so, at least not up until now.

That means we end up pretty much in a stalemate, since we can find out (and know) what their losses were when pilots/crewmembers were killed and probably also wounded, but not when their actual aircraft were lost without casualties, ie the same situation we actually face with the Luftstreitkräfte.

It is impossible, again as far as I know, to verify 100% Allied claims against the Germans unless there was a casualty or serious wound. In the same vein it is impossible to verify all German claims against the French.

I would welcome anyone who could show me complete French losses, including serial numbers, during WW 1.

From a general basis it feels odd that Windisch should be able to claim 22 victories without some kind of verification from elsewhere. Of all the combatants in WW 1 I think, since I am not sure, the Germans were the most careful when awarding victories. Most combats on the British Front took place on the German side of the line, so much "easier" to verify. Don't know how they performed against the French, but I doubt the Germans resorted to some kind of "Trenchard" doctrine in those sectors, so it would be interesting to know why Windisch was able to get away with it and even be awarded the Pour le Merite.


knusel 5th November 2017 19:57

Re: Rudolf Windisch Air to Air Victories
Hello Edward & Stig,

can you tell me which aircraft Windisch flew from January 1918 until he received a Fokker D.VII ?


natttuppen 10th May 2018 06:53

Re: Rudolf Windisch Air to Air Victories
Mr Hsiao, can you give a source for the statement that most of Lt d R Windischs victories were disputed? If indeed they were, he must have had friends/protectors in very high places.

Col Bruggy 10th May 2018 09:28

Re: Rudolf Windisch Air to Air Victories

If you cross-reference the casualties mentioned in, The French Air Service War Chronology 1914-1918 Day-to-Day Claims and Losses by French Fighter, Bomber and two-seat Pilots on the Western Front/Frank W Bailey & Christophe Cony (Grub Street,2001) with Windisch's biography/claims list in, Above The Lines/Franks,Bailey & Guest (Grub Street,1993), some claims do possibly match up, in the opinion of the authors.


GMichalski 10th May 2018 19:56

Re: Rudolf Windisch Air to Air Victories
very interesting post,
i know little about his claims but seems than i only find 5...
if you need the info let me check the sources,


Edward L. Hsiao 16th May 2018 05:14

Re: Rudolf Windisch Air to Air Victories

Thank you for your response so far. To GMichalski, yes I do need the info please.

Edward L. Hsiao

knusel 16th May 2018 10:58

Re: Rudolf Windisch Air to Air Victories
Good morning,

luckily, Windisch was a Blue Max winner which guarantees him being covered in a future volume of Lance Bronnenkant's marvellous BLUE MAX AIRMEN series.
I'm looking forward to it.

GMichalski 21st May 2018 18:10

Re: Rudolf Windisch Air to Air Victories
6 19-nov-17 Jasta 32 SPAD Laval #4268, Esc. Spa 65, Capt. O. de Montero-Torres, MIA* red spad

7 03 Jan 1918 Jasta 32 Balloon Villers 72 Cie. Aerostieres, S/Lt. M. Desache, OK

15 11 Apr 1918 Jasta 66 Bréguet 14 S of Noyon Esc. Br.129, Cpl. Grebil, MIA & Asp. E. Carron, MIA*

18 03-may-18 Jasta 66 Balloon Juvigny 88e Cie. Aerostieres, S/Lt. R. Lériche, OK

20 15-may-18 Jasta 66 SPAD 2 Trosly-Loire Esc. Spa.265, Lt. J. Chotard,KIA & Asp. J. Fropo,KIA


sorry can´t find more sources to compare but its a beginning,

Jim Oxley 22nd May 2018 02:53

Re: Rudolf Windisch Air to Air Victories
Edward, if WWI claims are your thing, I would suggest you raise the matter over at The Aerodrome Forum.

Those guys have an amazing knowledge of losses and claims. :)

All times are GMT +2. The time now is 05:33.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018,