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P-38 lost over Bulgaria on 26 August 1944?
There is a claim by Bulgaria's 'top gun' WW 2 pilot, 1st Lt. Stoyan Stoyanov, of a P-38, he reportedly shot down on 26 August 1944. However, I found no information on any 15th AAF fighter units equipped with 'Lightnings' that performed combat mission to Rumania and back, passing Bulgaria.
Can someone point to which unit's P-38 may have been the target of Stoyanov's guns in that final combat over Bulgaria? Thanks, in advance. |
Re: P-38 lost over Bulgaria on 26 August 1944?
On Aug 26,44 the 15th AF lost on the leg back to Italy a P-51 which escorted bombers
of the 304th Bombardment Wing which participated on a massive attack on Pipera . The pilot became POW at Schumen .This was the single fighter loss over Bulgaria and the pilot attributed the ditch due to oil problem which led to serious engine malfunction .The tendency of the Bulgarians to claim allied fighters and bombers was nothing out of ordinary . The topic rises the question regarding the missing MACR of this pilot from 332nd FG which at this point is missing . |
Re: P-38 lost over Bulgaria on 26 August 1944?
According to the Air Force Chronology for 26 August 1944:
MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 470+ bombers escorted by P-38s and P-51s attack targets in Italy and Rumania; B-17s hit viaducts and bridges at Venzone, Avisio, and Latisana, Italy; in Rumania, B-24s hit a train ferry and terminal at Giurgiu, Otopeni Airfield, barracks and troops in the Baneasa area and a viaduct at Borovnica. (I believe the Borovnica Viaduct was a Railroad Bridge/Viaduct in Slovenia.) (Otopeni and Baneasa are just north of Bucharest, Romania.) According to this link: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!to...ia/LRaPmwuwWio the P-38 was downed near Vratsa, Bulgaria. There does not seem to be a MACR for any P-38s or (F-5s) lost on 26 August, 1944 (but as has been noted there are missing MACRs). P-38 groups in the 15th AF were the 1st, 14th and 82nd FGs. A list of August MACRs can be seen here for example: http://www.aviationarchaeology.com/s.../44AugMACR.htm |
Re: P-38 lost over Bulgaria on 26 August 1944?
On Aug 26, 44 only 31st,332nd and 82nd provided escort on that mission .
82nd did not report any losses . The Bulgarian pilot claim is not appropriate . Further only one fighter pilot was taken POW at Shumen on that day as I mentioned before from 332nd FG |
Re: P-38 lost over Bulgaria on 26 August 1944?
82nd/97th - 26th.
43-28795 No MACR Pilot: Melvin L. Fernow. But this was over Italy if I recall correctly, probably why no MACR ? On the 25th J.B. Jensen was lost in 42-13309, an F5, MACR 7995. Again over Northern Italy(?). Alex |
Re: P-38 lost over Bulgaria on 26 August 1944?
The Mustang pilot was 2nd Lt Henry A. Wise Jr., 332nd Fighter Group, 99th Fighter Squadron.
On 26 August 1944 56 P-51 escorted bombers from the 304th Bombardment Wing to barracks near the Bulgarian airfield at Baneasa. On the trip back to base in Italy, Lt Wise was forced to bail out when the oil pressure dropped. He was captured by Bulgarian soldiers and taken to prison. After three weeks the Russians moved into the country and forced the Bulgarians to sign peace terms. The POWs were freed and sent across the border. In September Lt Wise returned to the 99th FS in Italy. He was promoted to 1st Lt and sent home. Source: An article in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch from 26 September 2009. Regards Leo |
Re: P-38 lost over Bulgaria on 26 August 1944?
On one side the Bulgarian pilot attacked a P-38 and has his fighter covered by oil lost by his victim.
On the other side, a P-51 pilot bailed out over Bulgaria after oil pressure dropped. Stoyanov could have shot down the P-51 and confused this fight with another when writting his memoirs long after. Or he could have hit a P-38 that came home on one engine. I wonder what Bulgarian reports written on this date or just after exist. |
Re: P-38 lost over Bulgaria on 26 August 1944?
Here is the link to the full article Leo mentions above about Wise.
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/l...7a4a78c22.html |
Re: P-38 lost over Bulgaria on 26 August 1944?
RSwank for your info and in addition the 52nd FG flew a sweep mission to Ploesti and
Bucharest area with some 44 P-51's without a loss or incident . Wise P-51 developed engine problems over BUC area which intensified over Bulgaria . He did not report any fighter activity which may have forced his bailout but rather his engine which no longer was under control . Note : "Adorimini " page 205 states that Maj Gardner led the escort mission to Romania , on the way home 16 enemy fighters engaged 82nd headon near Nis though they quickly left the P-38's with no desire to fight . By no means I believe Stoyanov would confuse a P-38 with P-51, I therefore tend to believe his claim was not correct |
Re: P-38 lost over Bulgaria on 26 August 1944?
Unless it was Fernow who he claimed that made an escape only to crash land later due perhaps to battle damage ?
Alex |
Re: P-38 lost over Bulgaria on 26 August 1944?
F/O Fernow which may have been on a training mission , his P-38 is not
listed as a combat loss . A month later he would be MIA on a mission to Munich due to what later on 82nd perceived as O2 problem . What is the source of your info as into him considered as a combat loss or ditch as of Aug 26,44 ? To recap 82nd did not lose any P-38's in Bulgaria on Aug 26,44 or on the way back as result of Stoyanov actions as far as the group history books and info is concerned . |
Re: P-38 lost over Bulgaria on 26 August 1944?
http://www.aviationarchaeology.com/s...y/Aug1944O.htm
If you read my earlier post you will understand that I put it forward as being a possibility. At least that was the intension. He force landed on the date you asked about. He was of a Group involved in operations on that date. So I put it to you that it is a possibility that he was involved, a/c damagedperhaps by enemy action and somehow managed to survive , return and force land/crash land. Otherwise perhaps the pilot you refer too as claiming a P38/F5 on the date you give must have imagined it as there were no other losses other than those already noted in the thread as far as I am aware. 25th August '44 42-13309/Jensen, 6th, August '44, 42-67822 and 43-28529 both in the UK and 43-28795 in Manfredonia, Italy. Oh also there was the P-61, 42-5545, MACR 8706. Alex |
Re: P-38 lost over Bulgaria on 26 August 1944?
According to my files Stoyanov was credited with damaging a Lightning on December 10, 1943 (no points), and shooting one down on January 10, 1944 (one point). The August 26, 1944 claim (one point) occurred at Pafla, Vrachansko (which is my transliteration of the Bulgarian, and could be wrong). I have not attempted to locate Pafla, Vrachansko.
So Stoyanov had encountered P-38s earlier, and would certainly be expected to be able to correctly identify them. So my guess at this point is that the date is wrong somehow. Perhaps Dénes can comment on the sources for this date. Because the only other conclusion I can see is that Stoyanov is lying. Either about the fact of a combat of any kind, or about the aircraft he shot down. If he had actually shot down a Russian aircraft (depending on where Pafla is) this might cause major problems, because I do not believe that Bulgaria was at war with Russia, although Russian forces were certainly very close to the Bulgarian border at this point. I cannot see any reason for Stoyanov to be lying about the fact of a combat. And as far as I know the Russians never flew the P-38 in combat, and only had access to a few "left lying around". Enjoy! Frank. |
Re: P-38 lost over Bulgaria on 26 August 1944?
I don't think Stoyanov lied, neither 15th AF lost a P-38 on that day nor F/O Fernow had
something to do with Stoyanov, also as of Aug 26,44 Russia was still at war with Bulgaria . There is no need to mention that during WWII all sides runned into numerous errors of this kind , therefore the likelyhood of an error is one possibilty. |
Re: P-38 lost over Bulgaria on 26 August 1944?
A.Smart according the link you provided Fernow incident was on 42-13199 95th FSQ and not
on 43-28795 97th FSQ which you stated initially .If you have the possibility to get a hold of 82nd FG history books then you will note Fernow's event was at Vicenzo the home of that FG and was a local incident ,therefore this does not apply to the subject in question. 0803 P-38G 42-13199 95FS 82FG 15 TAC 3 Fernow, Melvin L ITA Vincenzo |
Re: P-38 lost over Bulgaria on 26 August 1944?
Your post does not make any sense, neither getting personal .
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Re: P-38 lost over Bulgaria on 26 August 1944?
440826 P-38J 43-28795 97FS 82FG 15 FL 5 Fernow, Melvin L ITA Manfredonia
Alex |
Re: P-38 lost over Bulgaria on 26 August 1944?
Alex, despite the probability that you have a vast amount of knowledge, a huge number of records, have made 2700+ posts and command respect in the forum, I would have thought asking a member for their name when they have not given it is out of order and may be interpreted as an attempt to ridicule the member.
Peter |
Re: P-38 lost over Bulgaria on 26 August 1944?
Peter
Your head up is highly appreciated ! To return back to the original thread of Mr Denes Bernard , 15th AF did not lose any P-38's or any P-51's on mission to Romania except this of Wise caused by technical issues , Stoyanov did not lie but was wrongly credited with a P-38, F/O Fernow had nothing to do with Stoyanov or the mission to Pipera and Otopeni . I recollect my past numerous contacts with Charlie Pinson who was many years under the impression that two IAR-80 pilots brought down his P-38 . A later deeper research concluded instead that a Luftwaffe NCO pilot was the one who fired from his 6 o'clock position . These errors were human made rather lies and therefore corrected by human throughout the years . Happy New Year ! |
Re: P-38 lost over Bulgaria on 26 August 1944?
Hello Frank,
" The August 26, 1944 claim (one point) occurred at Pafla, Vrachansko (which is my transliteration of the Bulgarian, and could be wrong). I have not attempted to locate Pafla, Vrachansko." I looked at Google maps and my own atlas index. The closest that I found was VRACHA. This Vracha is or is near to a national park just north of the border with Greece. I just wonder what the route the 82ndFG would have taken on the 26th. Do you or anyone else have anything on their operational plan ( out and return ) that day ? Alex |
Re: P-38 lost over Bulgaria on 26 August 1944?
Unless it was a USAAF P38/F4/F5 which seems unlikely.
Or unless Germany and its allies had one in the area for some kind of training. Or unless the Soviets had acquired a serviceable one which may have been possible. I do not recall any Soviet type that remotely looked like a P38. The Only other explanation is that it was perhaps an FW 189, maybe they were in that region as they were mostly used for training. Anyone know of any FW189 Units in the region ? I cannot think of any other a/c that would in a combat situation, at a quick glance look remotely like a P38 ? Alex |
Re: P-38 lost over Bulgaria on 26 August 1944?
Fokker G.1?
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Re: P-38 lost over Bulgaria on 26 August 1944?
FW-189
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Re: P-38 lost over Bulgaria on 26 August 1944?
Thank you, guys, for your inputs.
One key to solve this issue would be to find out what did 97th FS, 82nd FG, do on 26 August 1944? I could not find a description of the combat activity of this FS/FG. I don't believe Stoyanov either identified wrongly the type, or he lied. He did not shoot down either a Fw 189, or a Soviet aircraft. It wasn't a recce version, either. So, I am convinced there was an air battle with P-38s over Bulgaria on that final USAAF mission over Bulgaria (there were many witnesses to it). We need to identify which USAAF unit it was to get any closer to the solution. P.S. Besides Stoyanov being officially credited with an air victory, three other Bulgarian pilots claimed P-38s, but were not credited with any. |
Re: P-38 lost over Bulgaria on 26 August 1944?
Hello researcher 111,
In post 9 you noted the following excert - "Adorimini " page 205 states that Maj Gardner led the escort mission to Romania , on the way home 16 enemy fighters engaged 82nd headon near Nis though they quickly left the P-38's with no desire to fight . From the excert if there were any losses would it not have been entered in the story line as to who was lost and how ? My thoughts are that following combat, when the "enemy" thought they had shot down some P38's those P38's must only have been damaged and so were not lost. That would explain there not being any reference to losses in the text. What does "Adorimini" have for the 25 th ? Alex |
Re: P-38 lost over Bulgaria on 26 August 1944?
Denes Bernard
From the info I have and history books of the 15th AF BG's and FG's which attacked Pipera and Otopeni as well my entire data base which is very accurate, this is what I can say about Stoyanov's claim : - The ETA of the BG's at the target was planned for 10:30 am - By aprox 11:30 am SSW of NIS the 82nd along with the bombers entered accurate flack and were engaged by some 16 ME-109's - The engagement took place S.of Nis - If Stoyanov flew as far as Nis and hit one of the P-38's then noticed trailing smoke that would explain his claim . - From other records of 82nd FG there is no mention that any of the P-38's were hit or experienced problems returning to base once the engagement took place .Gardner caimed an MC-202 though this also due to an error as this of Stoyanov because I doubt that MC-202's were present in the area . Stoyanov did not fly to the Greek border , there were no Russian or German acfts with P-38 similarties involved neither Stoyanov claim was a real one . Alex K |
Re: P-38 lost over Bulgaria on 26 August 1944?
Thank you, Alex, for the information and the provided sources. The overall piucture became clearer.
Can you please specify which aircraft (s/n, unit) the 4 copied sources refer to? |
Re: P-38 lost over Bulgaria on 26 August 1944?
The S/N's in question are :
41-28862, 42-78240,42-52635,42-78332 Alex K |
Re: P-38 lost over Bulgaria on 26 August 1944?
41-28862 B-24 H-15-DT 455 BG/743 BS MACR 8086.
42-78240 B-24 G-10-NT 455 BG/742 BS MACR 9718. 42-52635 B-24 H-15-FO 484 BG/825 BS MACR 7955. A/C returned to base. A/C was lost on 7 February 1945 near Plattensee/Balaton. German Abschussnummer/Casualty No. ME 2804, MACR 12120. 42-78332 B-24 G-15-NT 461 BG/766 BS MACR 7962. German Abschussnummer/Casualty No. ME 2181. Regards Leo |
Re: P-38 lost over Bulgaria on 26 August 1944?
I don't have any info on such loss in Serbia, nor Stanev has for Bulgaria.
If there is possibility that date is somehow wrong, there are 2 candidates: - 42-67310, 82FG, Aug 19th, last seen in west Serbia. - 44-23196, 1FG, Aug 21st, last seen near Niš. Since both pilots were KIA, there is not much data in MACR, so I don't know how they were shot down. |
Re: P-38 lost over Bulgaria on 26 August 1944?
Hello Vathra,
Happy New Year Correct me if I am wrong but wasn' t the Jesse R. Doris date the 31st August and not the 21st? Alex |
Re: P-38 lost over Bulgaria on 26 August 1944?
Hello Alex,
Yes, typo. |
Re: P-38 lost over Bulgaria on 26 August 1944?
42-67310 ( pilot killed due either weather possibly technical issues or both, far SSW of Kraljevo)
44-23196, ( pilot killed 20 miles SE of Nis ) due enemy activity presumed Luftwaffe during Ops Reunion ( Gunn) Also this not related to Stoyanov's claim Alex K |
Re: P-38 lost over Bulgaria on 26 August 1944?
Quote:
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Re: P-38 lost over Bulgaria on 26 August 1944?
Dénes,
LtCol Hugh R Graff. The aircraft was carrying 2 navigators, 2 bombardiers, and a photographer. Enjoy! Frank. |
Re: P-38 lost over Bulgaria on 26 August 1944?
Hello Dénes,
the crew in details: Pilot LtCol Hugh R. Graff (asgd to HQ 455th BG) POW Co-pilot 1st Lt James D. Vandegrift Jr. POW Navigator 1st Lt John Greco killed Navigator 1st Lt Ned Paul POW Bombardier Capt Leroy V E Brown killed Bombardier/Mickey Operator 2nd Lt Lawrence A. Bruni killed Radio O Gunner S/Sgt Richard R. Boster POW Engineer Gunner T/Sgt Karl F. Bordwell killed Engineer Gunner S/Sgt David Peeters killed Armorer Gunner Sgt John C. Kornechuck killed Armorer Gunner S/Sgt Leslie H. Stockdale killed Motion Picture Photographer 1st Lt Walter Resce (asgd to AAF Combat Camera Unit) POW Regards Leo |
Re: P-38 lost over Bulgaria on 26 August 1944?
Denes Bernard
The attachment is from 455th BG history book Alex K |
Re: P-38 lost over Bulgaria on 26 August 1944?
Thank you for the additional details.
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Re: P-38 lost over Bulgaria on 26 August 1944?
Quote:
He has probably evaded with partisans, and came back to base around same time as rest of his crew who were PoW in Shumen. |
Re: P-38 lost over Bulgaria on 26 August 1944?
Your statement is correct Boster was not listed into any of
Shumen roasters and only Graff , Vandergrifft,Paul Ned, W.Resce arrived to the camp. Regarding Capt LR Brown Radar Bombardier despite years of searching I couldn't locate any info nor burial info and along with Bruni and Grecco is MIA , probably due to the direct flack hit on the front fuselage section. Alex K |
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