Obfw Robert Roller and Shoot Luke
 

Greetings,

I have been conducting research on my cousin's B-24 that was lost over the North Sea on 18 October 1943. The B-24 was known as Shoot Luke, S/N 41-23729. Some websites report that Obfw. Robert Roller of 6./JG3 claimed this B-24, but the O.K.L. list shows Roller as having claimed a Spitfire over France on this date. RAF documents seem to support this, as two Spitfires were downed on October 18.

I have been unable to figure out who connected Shoot Luke and Robert Roller and why. Might anyone have any information that can shed some light on this discrepancy? Thank you in advance!

Re: Obfw Robert Roller and Shoot Luke
 

Roller's kills were indeed for Spitfires over France and I might be missing something but cannot see any claims for B-24s on this date

Re: Obfw Robert Roller and Shoot Luke
 

The MACR is saying that this B-24 was flying a diversion mission. There was no raid on Germany by 8th Air Force that day, only B-26 attacks on French airfields, so I wonder if a diversion mission was launched and the main mission was cancelled.

It was usual for B-24 groups to fly diversion when B-17 attacked Germany. It was done for example on 20 October by 70 B-24s, and on the 10th by 39.

According to the diary of 322nd BS, 91st BG, an attack on Duren was planned on October 18, 1943, and ONE B-17 of this squadron took off but could not join the formation and the mission failed due to poor weather.
http://www.91stbombgroup.com/Dailies/322ndjan1943.html

Two aircraft of 401st BS, 91st BG did the same.
http://www.91stbombgroup.com/Dailies/401st1943.html

My guess will be that the plan on the 18th was more or less the same than on the 20th, when the B-17 force actually attacked Duren while the B-24 flew a diversion.

An interesting report is the mission report by 392nd BG, another B-24 unit that flew a diversion that day. You can see it there: https://www.b24.net/MM101843.htm. It says "Succeeded in flushing up fighters. Probably succeeded in keeping enemy aircraft in that general area." I don't know how that was determined, by radar, R/T interception or visual contact, but there is no German claim for US bombers that day.

I don't know who made the connection between Roller and the B-24 loss, but the claim by Roller was listed by Tony Wood like this:
18.10.43 Ofw. Robert Roller: 10 6./JG 3 Spitfire  UK-TK: 2.000 m. [Vouziers-Suippes] 13.26 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.34

It is NOT confirmed by the more recent JFV book by Prien, that gives the following information for JG 3 claims that day:
6./JG 3 Fw. Johannes Hoyer Spitfire (1) 13.26 PIQu. 05 Ost S / OG-3/6 2150 B

The more recent JFV book is more reliable than Tony Wood's files (that were written 10-15 years before, and use far fewer sources, especially hand written or faded victory lists with no first name, so involving a lot of guesses by Tony and people who helped him (like Jim Perry ... and me))

The only reason I can see to link both losses is the JG 3 claim at 1326 hrs while the MACR says the B-24 was last seen at 1325 hrs, but I am not even sure that Allied and German used the same time zone at this time.

Re: Obfw Robert Roller and Shoot Luke
 

is this the same r roller? https://www.verliesregister.studiegr...rea=&airfield=

Re: Obfw Robert Roller and Shoot Luke
 

By checking the JFV book, I see that if there was no German claim for bombers, several groups of JG 1, JG 3, JG 11 and JG 25 were actually sent to intercept them.

The narrative for I./JG 1 says it lost one aircraft in combat and one due to engine failure. The loss list for this unit only lists the second, the Fw 190 of Ofw Piffer (WIA, 60% damage).
The JG 1 book by Eric Mombeek has both losses and says the Fw 190 A-5 WNr 410037 of I./JG 1 crashed in Brunswick area after an air battle, pilot unhurt (and so unknown).
The database of the summary of Luftwaffe losses confirm the I./JG 1 losses that day as one "destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, not observed by enemy" (probably 410037) and one "destroyed without enemy action on operational flight" (corresponding to Piffer's WNr 530720).

The JFV book had the WNr 410037 shot down in an air battle, with 100% damage and pilot unhurt... but with II./JG 1 and on 17 August 1943....

Back to II./JG 3, here is the narrative by Prien in the JFV book (my translation).

"The II./JG 3 in Schiphol was scrambled at 1245 hrs and was supposed to be guided to the four-engine bombers reported 150 km off the Dutch cost, which had meanwhile taken a south-westerly course off Borkum [my remark: consistent with the map displayed on the 392nd BG website]. There was no enemy contact with the four-engine bombers - but with some Spitfire, one of which was shot down over the sea [my remark: Hoyer's claim] - but then thick fog rose over the Dutch coastal area, in which the Gruppe broke apart. It made it impossible for the pilots to find their own base; fly around the fog to another field was not possible either because of the already burning "red lamp" showing no more gas in most Messerschmitt, so that in the end ten aircraft had to make emergency landings because of fuel shortage in open terrain. Four other Messerschmitt could not even reach land and crashed into the sea. The result was a catastrophe for the group, as they lost four killed and missing pilots and one injured as well as eight machines lost or damaged beyond repair."

So finally the JG 3 claim was done in the area of the B-24 diversion... But I don't see a B-24 being claimed as a Spitfire, and JG 3 reported not meeting the bombers.
[By the way, the B-24 diversion and the B-17 cancelled raid can so be credited with the destruction of 7 Bf 109s of JG 3 and 2 Fw 190s of JG 1. Not a bad score]

That day, the RAF lost two Spitfires that afternoon and the Luftwaffe claimed two. One pilot of 132 Sqn was captured in France so should be the victime of JG 26 here. The other is Plt Off Alistair McKenzie Finnie RAAF of 602 Sqn RAF lost aboard Spitfire IX MH730. According to the Fighter Command losses book, both Spitfires were lost during a Ramrod to Berck, Northern France. A RAF report displayed in the file by Tony Wood describing Fighter Command activity in 1943 shows that 132 and 602 Sqn flew together and made claims and reported losses over N France, so not in the place where II./JG 3 reported meeting Spitfires.

The claim of Hoyer is one hour before the one by Hoffman of JG 26 for a Spitfire, so these two claims can't be both against 132 and 602 Sqn.

The above document by Tony Wood shows no Spitfire unit off Netherlands as part of 11 Group Ramrod 273 (the one supporting the planned B-17 raid). Has someone an idea which Spitfire (or other fighters) could be there ?

Re: Obfw Robert Roller and Shoot Luke
 

Can someone tell me where "PIQu. 05 Ost S / OG-3/6" is ?

Re: Obfw Robert Roller and Shoot Luke
 

Sure is, thank you for sharing! This helps confirm that he was not flying over Vouziers-Suippes, France on this date as stated in the Tony Wood list.

Re: Obfw Robert Roller and Shoot Luke
 

Thank you so much for the extensive research you did in responding to me. My family and I greatly appreciate it, as it helps us build the story of our fallen relative. I now feel very confident in saying that Roller did not shoot down my cousin's B-24 on this date.

Thank you again!

Re: Obfw Robert Roller and Shoot Luke
 

Hello all,

On 18 Oct 43 II./JG 3 took off to intercept the B-24 diversion formation. Only a part of 6./JG 3, led by Staffelkapitän Hauptmann Paul Stolte, was able to make contact with the USA formation. Roller did indeed attack the B-24 formation that day; on the return route he made a belly landing, due to fuel shortage, possibly at Terschelling. I cannot confirm if Roller or Hoyer claimed a B-24 that day.

@ JoeHackett, you can contact me off board.

Best regards,
Rob

Re: Obfw Robert Roller and Shoot Luke
 

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/pictur...&pictureid=594


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/pictur...&pictureid=593


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/pictur...&pictureid=595



Crew that perished is not on the picture.

Source: Fold3, https://www.fold3.com/image/48253726?terms=23729