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-   -   P-51 losses on 10 April 1945 (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=9972)

Eric Larger 29th August 2007 11:35

P-51 losses on 10 April 1945
 
Dear all

I am looking for the P-51 losses on 10 April 1945.
Several machines were shot down that day , including on with R4m rockets .

German opponents were Me 262 and perhaps FW 190D-9 too .

All action took place over Brandenburg - Berlin -Köthen _ Magdeburg area .

So all records including victories claims , losses , and straffing missions are interesting me .

Many thanks for you help .

Eric

Skyraider3D 31st August 2007 18:40

Re: P-51 losses on 10 April 1945
 
Some Mustang encounter reports from http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...t-reports.html

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/m...-10april45.jpg
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/m...-10april44.jpg (dont be fooled by the jpg name, this is from 1945)
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/m...-10april45.jpg
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/m...-10april45.jpg
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/m...-10april45.jpg
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/m...-10april45.jpg

Eric Larger 1st September 2007 08:14

Re: P-51 losses on 10 April 1945
 
Many thnkas for this answer .

That helps a lot .

Does anyone of you have a loss list of P-51 that day ?

It seems that one P51 was shot dows by R4M rockets .

All the best

Eric

Skyraider3D 1st September 2007 14:02

Re: P-51 losses on 10 April 1945
 
Have you tried looking here yet?
http://www.armyairforces.com/dbmacr.asp

Also search for the serials you find there on the database on http://www.littlefriends.co.uk for more info.

Hope this helps!

drgondog 1st September 2007 16:28

Re: P-51 losses on 10 April 1945
 
So far - no losses recorded air to air

Several lost to flak in Berlin area strafing airfields

1SF mechanical failure - Rogers (POW)
20th Tracy - flak near Werder A/F - POW
20th Stewart - flak at Werder A/F - POW
20th Petersburz - flak - reached Russian lines

20th also engaged Me 262 air to air neuruppin (no losses) and Oranienburg (no losses)

55th Holland - flak near Burg BUT 55th engaged and shot down Me 262s at Burg and Galworde.. so flak report could be in error

56th Holland - no factor here

78th strafed Werder
Stinton POW - flak at Werder A/F
Kuehl MIA-Evade - flak at Brandenburg - B/O near Helmstadt
Spaulding - flak at Werder A/F

364th
Lach - flak near Margraten - KIA

The 359 had a fight with Me 262s near Gardelegen and Wittenburg but I don't have losses for any in four sources..

Peter Kassak 2nd September 2007 10:50

Re: P-51 losses on 10 April 1945
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by drgondog (Post 49846)
So far - no losses recorded air to air

Several lost to flak in Berlin area strafing airfields

1SF mechanical failure - Rogers (POW)
13758 4/10/1945 P-51 44-63748 857 1
20th Tracy - flak near Werder A/F - POW
20th Stewart - flak at Werder A/F - POW
20th Petersburz - flak - reached Russian lines
13757 4/10/1945 P-51 44-13751 20 79
13775 4/10/1945 P-51 44-15327 20 55
13776 4/10/1945 P-51 44-15078 20 55

20th also engaged Me 262 air to air neuruppin (no losses) and Oranienburg (no losses)

55th Holland - flak near Burg BUT 55th engaged and shot down Me 262s at Burg and Galworde.. so flak report could be in error
13774 4/10/1945 P-51 44-72274 55 338

56th Holland - no factor here


78th strafed Werder
Stinton POW - flak at Werder A/F
Kuehl MIA-Evade - flak at Brandenburg - B/O near Helmstadt
Spaulding - flak at Werder A/F
13772 4/10/1945 P-51 44-64156 78 84
13773 4/10/1945 P-51 44-15556 78 82

364th
Lach - flak near Margraten - KIA
13771 4/10/1945 P-51 44-15019 364 385

The 359 had a fight with Me 262s near Gardelegen and Wittenburg but I don't have losses for any in four sources..


JUST TO AD SERIALS. Source is MACR index database, www.armyairforce.com
numbers in order as MACR, date, type, serial, FG, FS


regards

Skyraider3D 2nd September 2007 13:43

Re: P-51 losses on 10 April 1945
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by drgondog (Post 49846)
The 359 had a fight with Me 262s near Gardelegen and Wittenburg but I don't have losses for any in four sources..

That's correct. I accidentally looked for 10 March and have removed my comment on 359th losses :)

359th FG claims for 10 April '45 are:
J.T. Marron, 368th FS, P-51D 44-13776, CV-Y: 1 Me 262 damaged
H. Tenenbaum, 369th FS, P-51D 44-72366, IV-D: 1 Me 262 destroyed
R.J. Guggemos, 369th FS, P-51D 44-15514, IV-O: 1 Me 262 destroyed + 2 Me 109 destroyed on the ground
R.R. Klaver, 369th FS, P-51K 44-11664, IV-G: 1 Me 262 damaged

This was mission 341, lasting from 11:59 to 17:53 h. The 359th was escorting B-17s, R/V at 13:40 at Osnabruck. Near Wittstock Marron damages a 262. Bombing takes place at 14:50 at Oranienburg with excellent results. Then Tenenbaum spots a B-17 exploding and sees six Me 262. He finally catches another one on finals at Gardelegen aerodrome and destroys it, scoring hits on a second before being driven off by flak. Guggemos then catches another Me 262 trying to land and nails it, while Klaver damages yet another. Before turning home Guggemos strafes two Me 109s at Dannefeld, together with the 361th FG who claims another few.
This day later became known as The Great Jet Massacre, with the 8th AF claiming 20 Me 262s destroyed in the air. Total losses for the Luftwaffe are 311 dest. and 237 dam., while the 8th AF loses 19 bombers and eight Mustangs.
source: Jack H. Smith - Mustangs & Unicorns


I just remembered, William N. Hess' book German Jets versus the US Army Air Force has a very extensive account on this battle. Do you have this book? It doesn't mention any Mustang losses though.


Lastly AJ-Press' Monografie Lotnicze, Me 262 Schwalbe, volume 2 has a list for claims made by Me 262 pilots. Though I suspect this list contains inaccuracies and definitely suffers from overclaiming, here's what I found for 10 April 1945:

I/JG 7:
Oblt. Schuck: 4x B-17
Oblt. Grünberg: 2x B-17
Oblt. Stehle: B-17
Oblt. Bohatsch: B-17
Ofhr. Neuhaus: B-17
Flg. Reiher: B-17

III/JG 7:
Oblt. Schall: Mustang
Lt. Hagenah: Mustang

Fhr. Pfeiffer: B-17
Ofw. Lennartz: Mustang
Lt. Redmacher: Mustang
Ofw. Greiner: Mustang

Ofw. Pritzl: Thunderbolt

KG (J) 54:
Lt. Palenda: 2x B-17
Lt. Rossow: 2x B-17
Lt. Becker: B-17
+ 7x B-17 by unknown pilots

So from the looks of things, all Mustangs were shot down by III/JG 7 that day.

Eric Larger 4th September 2007 15:27

Re: P-51 losses on 10 April 1945
 
Many thanks to all of you for thses posts .

They are very usefull for me

Eric

Skyraider3D 4th September 2007 15:49

Re: P-51 losses on 10 April 1945
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyraider3D (Post 49875)
So from the looks of things, all Mustangs were shot down by III/JG 7 that day.

That was a bit of a poor statement. What I actually meant to say was that any Mustangs that were indeed shot down by Me 262s that day, would most likely have been the victim of III/JG 7.


Eric, please let us know when you find out more :)

Eric Larger 4th September 2007 15:53

Re: P-51 losses on 10 April 1945
 
No Problem at all to keep you informed

Do you have the names of the German victors that day ? If not I might have them

Eric


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