Poncet or Ponzet? 2/JG54
 

Hi,
I am having a problem with: 31st March 1941. 2/JG54. Messerschmitt Bf109E(4848). Domestic flight. Crashed near Wesermünde, Germany. Fw. Paul Poncet (FF) killed. Aircraft a write-off.

According to Prien, Teil 5, Page 121, he says "8th March 1941, Werk.Nr.4843, and name Paul Ponzet".

I have checked with the VDK, and they have no record of Poncet or Ponzet for either date.

I would be grateful if anyone could confirm 100% which is correct, and if they know where Poncet is buried (Private grave somewhere?)

Thank you,
Steve

Re: Poncet or Ponzet? 2/JG54
 

I have 31 March and his grave should be at Rathenow Friedhof. I also have name Poncet, although the NVM has name Ponzet.

According to my database WNr. 4843 was lost on 5 Aug 1942 at Uhtua/Finland, when Uffz Kurt Philipp landed unintentionally at the Soviet airfield and become POW.

Matti

Re: Poncet or Ponzet? 2/JG54
 

Thank you Matti for clearing that up.

Unusual for Prien to get it wrong, but at least I was right for a change! Thank you for the grave location too, I will now enter this on my register.

Much appreciated.

Re: Poncet or Ponzet? 2/JG54
 

Hi,

in comparison with the NVM:
Gen.Qu. loss return 7 Aug 1942 item 76
5 Aug 42 7./JG 5 Feindflug Ort: bei Uchta, Ursache: Notlandung auf Feindgebiet bei Überführungsflug, Flugzeug verbrannt, Bf 109 E-7 4843 (weiße 6) 100%. Uffz Kurt Phillipp vermisst

JFV 9/III page 484
05.08.42 7./JG 5 Uffz Kurt Philipp KG, verorientiert, Notlandung Uchte, 100%. Bf 109 E-7 4834 (divergent WNr.!) ws 6.

Regards
Leo

Re: Poncet or Ponzet? 2/JG54
 

Steve

I notice you have had a lot of questions lately.
It would be very interesting to know the initial source you quote when comparing with other information available.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Poncet or Ponzet? 2/JG54
 

Three aircraft force landed at the same place, Uchta or Uchte, on 5 Aug 1942

Were they all on a transfer flight?
Also can anyone point me to where this place is situated? Google maps comes up with either a place in Germany or another one in central Russia, none of which are very plausible....

Cheers
Stig

Re: Poncet or Ponzet? 2/JG54
 

Uhtua, Finland !
Those guys pretend to make historical researches but no one care to check what is written, what they write and so on ...
Sorry to tell it like this but starts - since very long time in fact - to make me friendly upset. :)
Cheers,
Franck.
https://www.google.fr/maps/place/722...8!4d26.8207384

Re: Poncet or Ponzet? 2/JG54
 

Franck

Since these aircraft cannot have force landed at Uchtua in Finland and pilots becoming POWs in the process, are you saying the transfer was between Uchtua and probably Petsamo and that the actual place of force landing is unknown?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Poncet or Ponzet? 2/JG54
 

Hello Stig,

according to JFV 9/III on 5 Aug 1942 the 7./JG 5 transferred from Petsamo to Pontsalenjoki (spelling corresponding to JFV 9/III). On the way three pilots had lost their way and made emergency landings at Uchta (spelling according to the Gen.Qu. loss returns), a Russian occupied territory where they got POW:
Lt Bodo Helms Bf 109 E-7 WNr. 4219 white 8
Uffz Werner Schumacher Bf 109 E-7 WNr. 6105 white 10
Uffz Kurt Philipp Bf 109 E-7 WNr. 4834 white 6.

Regards
Leo

Re: Poncet or Ponzet? 2/JG54
 

Thanks Leo

Should have read the text....
Yes I know where and what Pontsalenjoki was (in Russia now)
However it does not bring us anywhere closer to this Uchta/Uchte place.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Poncet or Ponzet? 2/JG54
 

In fact Uhtua is in Russia and today called Kalevala. Its present airfield's location is:

65 12 36.98 N, 31 08 08.77 E.

I don't know, if the airfield was at the same place during the war.

Those three Bf 109 E-7 started from Rovaniemi at 10.10 and landed at Uhtua at 10.50.

Matti

Re: Poncet or Ponzet? 2/JG54
 

Hallo!

As Matti wrote already.

Kalevala, Russia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalevala,_Russia

I am pretty sure one of Hannu Valtonen's books has this story and the "Uchta" airfield location, too. I have no possiblity to check for awhile now.

Cheers,
Kari

Re: Poncet or Ponzet? 2/JG54
 

Thanks Matti (and Kari)

I was hoping you would get back to us on this.
What an amazing name change, especially considering the implications on the Finnish myths. I always felt the epos was more Karelian than actually Finnish, but who can tell?

For those who don't know it, Matti is very well aquainted with the area and has helped me out before when I have reached seemingly dead ends.

Thanks again
Cheers
Stig

Re: Poncet or Ponzet? 2/JG54
 

Hello again!

There is this homepage for the Uhtua airfield with maps and modern photos:
https://www.sotahistoriallisetkohtee...view/-/id/1376

In Finnish, but surely Google Translate mangles it to something?

"vanha kenttä" = old airfield

"uusi pienkonekenttä" = new general aviation airfield

"säätutka" = weather radar


IIRC Finnish heavy artillery observers could see the field with some optics and they tried to destroy the three Bf 109s for Germans?

Cheers,
Kari

Re: Poncet or Ponzet? 2/JG54
 

Dear all,

The incident discussed in this thread was described in detail by a capable Karelian journalist, Andrey Tuomi, in an article published in May 2017:

"Local fighting: 'Messers' in the sky of Karelia
An almost forgotten episode of the war on the Karelian front, which became a headline in the reports of the Soviet Information Bureau"
ptzgovorit.ru/shortread/boi-mestnogo-znacheniya-messery-v-karelskom-nebe

The three Bf 109 E aircraft had in fact landed on a disused field airstrip about a kilometre from the frontline and some 13 kilometres from the town of Kalevala (Uhtua). The airstrip was not in use because it was under direct observation by Finnish forces. It is therefore unsurprising that Finnish mortar teams destroyed all three Messerschmitts, as described in the article. The three German pilots were taken prisoner by Ivan Kirin's battalion of the 118th Rifle Regiment of the 54th Rifle Division.

Andrey Tuomi had been active in Karelian journalism for many years, and in February of this year he published a two-part investigative report called "Red fish in troubled waters." The article discussed the great ecological danger presented by the setting up of a trout farm on an open lake in Karelia by a group of unscrupulous local businessmen and officials. Tuomi compared this to Finnish practice, writing that Finland had recognised the ecological danger and shifted trout farming to areas close to the sea.
mustoi.ru/krasnaya-ryba-v-mutnoj-vode-chast-1/

Mr. Tuomi died suddenly six months ago, on 18 June 2019. May he rest in peace.
ptzgovorit.ru/news/skonchalsya-laureat-konkursa-soyuza-zhurnalistov-karelii-andrey-tuomi

Regards,

Dan

Re: Poncet or Ponzet? 2/JG54
 

I would like to alert the moderators - every single attempt to insert links into a forum post leads to an error message. That is why message above contains no links. The error message is:

"The server is temporarily unable to service your request due to maintenance downtime or capacity problems. Please try again later."

Posting a link is possible only be removing the protocol marker, as follows:
www.bbc.co.uk

Regards,

Dan

Poncet or Ponzet? German pronunciation
 

This is only a rather unimportant detail:

The name Poncet is fairly widespread in France. Many French people, most of them protestants, emigrated to other countries when the so-called "sun-king" Louis XIV withdrew all their rights and oppressed them in the XVIIth century. Many settled in Germany, hence numerous French names there including Galland and also de Maizières and more.

So Poncet could be a German name of French origin, but most Germans (if not informed) would pronounce it "Ponntsett", which corresponds Ponzet.

Disclaimer: I have no religion at all.

Re: Poncet or Ponzet? 2/JG54
 

Leaving aside that the moderators aren't initiated into the mysteries of IT support for the forum, here's what I do… https://www.bbc.co.uk/news

I just posted that link by clicking on the paperclip icon (fourth from the right in the toolbar at the top of the reply box) and pasting in the URL of the page in question. Do your problems arise from doing it that way?

Re: Poncet or Ponzet? 2/JG54
 

Hello Nick,

I am sorry that it has taken me all of 11 days to reply - work travel has intervened. Unfortunately, I am still unable to insert functional links, the best I can do right now is:
bbc.co.uk/news

I wish you an early Merry Christmas, and may the forum problems disappear in the New Year!

Regards,

Dan