Pierre Clostermann's victories
 

Hi all

I am the editor of French magazine AVIONS.
For those who are interested, I will publish in a few days a big article (42 pages) in which I detail every air and ground victories of Pierre Clostermann during WW2.
In writing this article I was able to examine his TWO logbooks, including the Tempest one, the ORBs of all his squadrons and the existing combat reports.

This article is the result of more than ten years of research.
Many surprises, but also many mysteries solved!

AVIONS No 227
http://www.avions-bateaux.com/produit/avions?page=1

Christophe Cony

Re: Pierre Clostermann's victories
 

Cher Monsieur Cony,

Firstly congratulations for the magnifique work onto the AVIONS Serie and also for this very very interesting topic.

Some years ago another French Historian made a similar work but was fined judicially, in France. On your case, you seem to have had a good relationship to have access to his RAF Logbooks...

I became a civilian comercial pilot partially due to Reading Clostermann and Jubelin while I was 14 years old...so you can imagine the Gratitude I owe to them and to this kind of Reading. Of course, with the years, "Le Grand Cirque" was desmistified after Reading other books and cross-checking informations, like you did on the ORB(s).

For Brazilian researchers like myself, Clostermann being born in Curitiba (not a small town like you said onto the PDF accessible part of the article but the Capital of PARANÁ State (we are like France divided on several small States, similar to your Departments - I lived 4 years onto Départment 69 - Rhone Alpes, for instance), we do consider him a Brazilian-French and not a French-Brazilian...so a most welcomed article.

So, do you believe that, after all your work, that there would be a possibility of a FUTUR revision of "Le Grand Cirque" with the "correct" facts with the aval of the Clostermann Family???

I am writing a major book tribute to the "Brazilians in RAF Service, 1939-45" and Clostermann do have a chapter, where some of his claims were matched too (or at least I tried to) and some information from his war-memories dismistified...but I was advised to not publish due to the judicial problem with the French Historian who was fined some 100.000 Francs (or plus) by Clostermann himself (the Judges I mean).

Sincerely I do believe that most of us (historians - professionals or "sprogs" like me) are just trying to match things...to add details, not to criticize or judge the acts of pilots who died and did their job (overclaiming or not).

Congratulations again and I shall buy avidly this article and magazine. Keep going and preserving the deeds of a Generation and a Breed of Men (and Women) that Mankind will see NO MORE.

Most humbly yours,
Adriano S. Baumgartner, ASV 00.344
baumgartner_asv@yahoo.com.br

Re: Pierre Clostermann's victories
 

Looking forward to reading it. You might want to move this to the Books and Magazine section of the forum. ;)

Stephen

Re: Pierre Clostermann's victories
 

Are you suggesting in France we consider him French-Brazilian ? Because not. He is born in Brazil. Period.

Re: Pierre Clostermann's victories
 

Hallo,

" Le Grand Cirque" was one of my favorite books when i was a kid. I am still believing that it is one of the best aviation books.
I spent two hours yesterday reading this very interesting article written by Cony. He has access to primary sources (including from Clostermann family) and give us a complete story of the life of Clortermann. Cony made a careful account of all the planes shoot down (with each time comparison with the actual german losses) or destroyed on the ground by Clostermann.
On the other side each of the Spitfire and Tempest flown by Clostermann are illustrated with a lot of new photos and very good art works.
Cony gave me the willing to read once more time "Le Grand Cirque".

Rémi Baudru

Re: Pierre Clostermann's victories
 

Couldn't have said it better, excellent article.

Re: Pierre Clostermann's victories
 

Dear all,

My sample of the Magazine arrived last Friday (to Brazil)...and yes, Mr. CONY did a mervellous work cross-checking ALL serial numbers flown by Clostermann, from the 17 DH 82 Tiger Moths up to the Tempests he flew.

There are several wonderful pictures and German losses for grand part of his claims are submitted on the side. Of course, there are some gaps (but I guess this is due to Luftwaffe archives being unwritten in late 1945), like the Do 18 and Ju 352 serial numbers or unit, on the Grossembode affair.

Another delicate subject is the DSO which is seen on Clostermann's Medals Panel...and on some pictures taken after the war on his chest.

Unknown to me, so far, was that Clostermann flew a Fw 190 captured and a Mark XIV Spitfire...which is very very nice.

I most say that I was really happy to see such a vast amount of information being published and corrected. It is a wonderful tribute to one of the Greateast Aces of WW2, even though his memoirs (Le Grand Cirque) do have its faults. As I said before, it is mostly due to Clostermann's Big Show and JUBELIN (Marin de Métier pilote de fortune) that I became myself a civilian commercial pilot.

Congratulations to all the co-authors (copilots) of this Article, persons like Matti Salonnen (for instance) who do have helped quite a number of us here on this Forum and to whom we do owe quite a number of beers...

Fully recommended reading (with some 10+ Art of Clostermann's machines)...

MR. CONY, do you believe a Revision of Le Grand Cirque will see light one near futur with the Historical Corrections?

Again MERCI and keep going!

Adriano S. Baumgartner, ASV 00.344

Re: Pierre Clostermann's victories
 

For William Faulkner "le grand cirque" war the best aviation book !

Alain

Re: Pierre Clostermann's victories
 

Bonsoir Monsieur Cony,

I enjoyed reading your awesome Clostermann biography very much !
Luckily, I chose to learn French at school.
The publication answers nearly all Clostermann questions.
I wonder if it's possible to find the dates of all 14 of his shared claims mentioned in the Broadhurst list (irrespective, if they are real or not). So far, I found:

sh 28.03.1945 He111 DES(1/2) confirmed victory in Public Offical Record archives (Ju88?)
sh 05.04.1944 Bf109 DES(1/2) confirmed victory in Public Offical Record archives
sh 05.04.1944 Bf109 DES(1/2) confirmed victory in Public Offical Record archives
sh 20.04.1945 Ju290 DES(1/2) admitted as confirmed with official citation by French Air Force
sh 03.05.1945 Bf109 DES(1/2) shared with John Irvin Bay Adams
sh 03.05.1945 Bf109 DES(1/2) shared with John Irvin Bay Adams(Fw190?)

but I still lack the dates and decimals of 8 Fw190's.

Best greetings from Switzerland,

Michael