Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

Alfred,

On January 2, 1945 the Soviets have permanently lost 4 Lavochkin La-5 fighters, 2-2 from both 5 and 17 VA:

17 VA, 295 IAD, 116 IAP, La-5FN, Aleksei Ignatevich Roi (OK, next day returned) damaged in dogfight in the Tata area, then belly-landed. 8 La-5 under the command of Kalchenko. – “8 ла-5, вед Кальченко, прикрытие войск в р-не Тата. Подбит ИА, сел на фюзеляж. Самолет разбит, летчик цел. Вернулся 3.1.45”

17 VA, 295 IAD, 31 IAP, 2ndsquadron, La-5FN, S/N: 39211844, engine: 8212412, tactical ‘44’, yellow nickname: "H - Moскoвский Колхозник”, Maj. Dmitrii Stepanovich Kravtsov (HSU, WIA) near Dág. - “Сбит ИА, тяжело ранен. 12:45 над Будапештом сопровождали Ил-2. Бой с 8 Ме-109. Отсечен от группы и сбит в районе Даг.”– He was shot down by Hungarian Fw 190F-8 (markings: W-521) fighter-bomber pilot, Horváth Sándor szkv. (102/1. squadron) over Dág.

5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 177 GvIAP, La-5FN, S/N: 41210115, tactical ‘15’, ml.l-t Nikolai Lukyanovich Vereshak (OK) – “6 Ла-5 вед ГСС Скляров прикрытие с бомбометанием Будапешт. Потерял группу, израсходовал горючее, вместо аэр То-Алмаш, сел в 3 км ЮВ Кечкемет. Самолет разбит, летчик цел.” – ran out of fuel, plane broken at Kecskemét-SE, 3 km, while escorting 5 VA, 218 BAD Douglas A-20G Boston bombers over Budapest from Debrecen.

5 VA, 279 IAD, 92 IAP, La-5UTI, a two-seater fighter-trainer version of La-5F, S/N: 39215298, engine: 65021916, tactical ‘98’ on the airfield of Örkény in an accident, 2 KIFA. m-r Gurii Ivanovich Rodionov (KIFA, 1909-1945) and ml.l-t Aleksandr Fedorovich Hramov (KIFA, 1922-1945)

On January 22, 1945 the Soviet 17th Air Army has permanently lost 4 Lavochkin La-5 fighters:

17 VA, 295 IAD, 116 IAP, La-5FN, S/N: 41210109, tactical ‘09’, ml.l-t Vasilii Maximovich Boltyan (OK) –crashed on his own airfield after a dogfight with 6 Bf 109Gs: “Подбит ИА, сел на фюзеляж на свой аэродром. Самолет разбит и сгорел, летчик цел. 4 ла-5 и 5 Ил-2 в район Шарико. Атакованы 6 Ме. Поврежден, сел в районе аэр в саду.”

17 VA, 295 IAD, 116 IAP, 1st squadron, La-5FN, S/N: 39211687, engine: 8212228, tactical ‘87’, st.l-t Georgii Konstantinovich Zolotarskii (POW, liberated, after WWII returned home) – lost on recce. mission over the Gárdony-Börgönd-Sárisáp-Perkáta area near Adony-Pusztaszabolcs: “11:55 с ведомым Планкевичем на разведку в р-н Гардонь, Бергенд, Шаришап и Перката. Через 15 м после взлета Золотарский передал о бое с 8 Ме-109. Сел на вынужденную на вражеской территории, был в конц лагере, вернулся в июне 1945 в СССР.”

17 VA, 295 IAD, 116 IAP, 1st squadron, La-5FN, S/N: 39212516, engine: 8213222, tactical ‘16’, ml.l-t Ivan Danilovich Plankevich (MIA) – lost on recce. mission over the Gárdony-Börgönd-Sárisáp-Perkáta area near Adony-Pusztaszabolcs: “11:55 с ведущим Золотарским на разведку в р-н Гардонь, Бергенд, Шаришап и Перката. Через 15 м после взлета Золотарский передал о бое с 8 Ме-109.”

17 VA, 295 IAD, 164 IAP, La-5F, S/N: 39215251, engine: 65033094, tactical ‘51’, l-t Vasilii Savelevich Svistelnikov (OK) – crashlanded at Pázmánd-E after a dogfight with battle damages. “Подбит ИА, сел на фюзеляж в районе восточнее Пазманд. Самолет разбит, летчик цел.”


On January 30, 1945 the Soviet 17th Air Army has permanently lost 3 Lavochkin La-5FN fighters:

17 VA, 295 IAD, 31 IAP, La-5FN, S/N: 39211156, engine: 8211268, tactical ‘56’, ml.l-t Mihail Stepanovich Derevnin (KIA, 1923-1945) at Taksony in dogfight with 6 Bf 109Gs in the Kajászó (Szentpéter) -Kisvelence area. “Сбит в воздушном бою, летчик погиб. 12:36 - 13:15 4 Ла-5 вед Цыкин прикрывал в р-не Сентпетр-Кишвеленце. В конце патрулирования встретили 6 Ме-109 Н-1500 м. Деревнин отстал от ведущего, задымил и с пикирования ударился о землю. Калинин сбил Ме. Деревнин найден убитым и похоронен при части. упал в р-не Такшoн”

17 VA, 295 IAD, 31 IAP, La-5FN, S/N: 39211768, engine: 8212330, tactical ‘68’, l-t Ilya Martemyanovich Dudarev (MIA, 1923-1945) at Csiribpuszta, Agárd-SE in a dogfight – “Сбит в воздушном бою, летчик выпрыгнул с парашютом над территорией противника. Судьба неизвестна.т 15:05 - 15:45 4 Ла-5 вед Смирнов прикрытие Каполнаш-Ниек, Сентпетр. В районе Граф Н-1500 встретили 4 Ю-88, 6 Ме-109. Цыкин сбил 1 Ме, Дударева сбили, выбросился с парашютом с высоты 4000 м. упал в р-не Чириб”

17 VA, 194 IAD, 530 IAP, La-5FN, S/N: 392124100, engine: 8213166, tactical ‘100’, ml.l-t Aleksandr Petrovich Smirnov (OK) at Madocsa. “Сел на аэродроме по льду выкатился попал в канавую Сломан фюзеляж аэр Мадоча 18:25 разбит, цел”

Times are Moscow locals in reports. Other planes were max. damaged in combat, but not lost. I hope this helps.

Regards,

Gabor

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

Folks,

Note, that MANY locations (or at least names) in soviet reports do not exist anymore, so you will never find them in recent maps or Google Earth. Soviet reports were based on VEEERY detailed military maps, showing even farms or farm-centres in the area which sometimes disappeared after the war.

Another issue is the (sometimes politically motivated) name-changes during post-war Communism. One report in my prev. comments eg. mentioned 'Saint-Peter'. (Сентпетр) This was actually 'Kajászószentpéter' (Kayaso-St-Peter), or just Szentpéter (Saint-Peter) in short. During communism 'Saint-Peter' disappeared from the name, so now you find only Kajászó in recent maps, not Szentpeter, just like in original soviet combat report!

Since I have copies of many original soviet 1944-1945 military maps of Hungary, I was able to identify many dogfight and crash locations specified in combat reports, but I am telling you, sometimes it took for a long time...! :)

...finally: see draft of ml.l-t Aleksandr Petrovich Smirnov's La-5FN (No.392124100) crash-landing at Madocsa airfield, Hungary on January 30, 1945 from his accident investigation file at TsAMO Military archives at Podolsk, Russia. Note short version of his La-5 serial (24100) in report's header.

(The beginning part of usual La-5 serials '3921' meant only factory and AC model: 39 was factory code of the La-5, 21 meant Gorky factory (Factory no.21 in Gorky). Combat reports sometimes used only the 'real' plane-serials, so only the short batch and plane ID part of the digits, like here: 24100.

Gabor

PS: folks, looks like I am running out of attachment space, what to do now...? :o

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

Gospodin Gabor !

I red the aerodrome plate or chart you name it.....how on the earth you get access to all this rare stuff ? Do you have any similar period 1944 -45 such as Oradea, Medias, Debrecen, Satu Mare ?

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

I have soviet 1944-45 airfield maps of Börgönd, Érsekcsanád, Taszár, Kiskunlacháza, but not for the ones you mentioned. :-(((

As a member of the researcher-team of the Szolnok Aircraft Museum, we work together with Russian researchers and friends/colleagues on the mutual aviation history of our Countries and Air Forces during WWII. Soviet records are from them. Telling you, the Russian TsAMO archives is a real W-O-N-D-E-R-L-A-N-D!!! :)

Regards,

Gabor

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

Folks,

5./JG 52 ace, Friedrich Haas' list for Hungary in 1944:

16/10/1944 ......... Jak-11 -probably Yak-9T(M), S/N: 2715334, engine: 425-49, 5 VA, 331 IAD, 179 IAP, l-t. Dmitrii Nikolaevich Maximenkov (KIA-KIFA) - returned with combat damages and crashed on Torda/Turda airfield "при возвращении с БЗ был ранен, потерял сознание и разбился на 3-м заходе. катастрофа над аэр. Турда"
18/10/1944 ......... Jak-11 -Found no such permanent loss, probably just damaged. (3 Yak losses few hrs. later, - not his opponents!)
19/10/1944 ......... LaGG-5 Perhaps 5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 178 GvIAP La-5FN, S/N: 39212311, gv.capt. Semenov (MIA)
30/10/1944 ......... LaGG-5 Found no such permanent loss, probably just damaged.
01/11/1944 ......... Jak-9 - Found no such permanent loss, probably just damaged (more damaged Yaks this day!)
23/11/1944 ......... Jak-9 - Yak-1B, S/N: 32161, engine: 355-1983, tactical '1', 5 VA, 331 IAD, 122 IAP, ml.l-t Titov. Returned from dogfight, plane broke.
23/11/1944 ......... Il-2mH. Probably IL-2m3, 5 VA, 12 GvShAD, 187 GvShAP, S/N: 12260, gv.ml.l-t Grilev (POW, later escaped)
05/12/1944 ......... Jak-9 - Found no such permanent loss, probably just damaged.
05/12/1944 ......... Il-2mH. Perhaps IL-2m3, 5 VA, 4 GvShAD, 90 GvShAP
11/12/1944 ......... Jak-9 - Found no such permanent loss, probably just damaged. Reported time is too early!
11/12/1944 ......... Jak-9 - Found no such permanent loss, probably just damaged. Reported time is too early!
20/12/1944 ......... Jak-9 - Lack of info, perhaps a Yak-1B of 5 VA, 331 IAD? Don't know.
20/12/1944 ......... Jak-9 - Found no such permanent loss, probably just damaged.
21/12/1944 ......... Jak-9 - Hard question. Perhaps a 17 VA, 288 IAD, 659 IAP Yak-9DD, S/N: 0115311, ml.l-t Kostin (WIA)
21/12/1944 ......... Jak-9 - Hard question. Perhaps a 17 VA, 288 IAD, 659 IAP Yak-9DD, S/N: 0115315, st.l-t Sosnikov returned on the 25th.

Gabor

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

Gabor

Yes Érsekcsanád could be of interest....regarding Gryalev B.Dimitrievitch ,where was he held POW , when
he escaped ...are there any documents ? All what I have is not returned from mission

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

гв.мл.л-т Грылев Борис Дмитриевич

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

I read somewhere that he was captured, but later escaped. But: this info was not part of soviet combat record: 9 IL-2 (commander: Feoktistov) protected by 4 La-5s attacked Apc area. When leaving the target, 4 'Fw 190's attacked them and Grilev's plane got downed. (Good chance that AC type was misidentified.)

"12:45 9 Ил-2 вед к-н Феоктистов и 4 Ла-5 взлет на цель Апч. В 13:20 при подходе к Хатван перенацелены на лес в 4 км севернее Хатван. Перестраивались в пеленг на Н-1000 м. В это время атакованы 4 ФВ--190, по правому ведомому замыкающего звена Афанасьеву, безуспешно. 1 ФВ атаковал Грылева, но Афанасьев его подбил. Ил-2 стали перестраиваться в правый круг, опять атака ФВ. Афанасьев ушел с курсом 180 гр на свою территорию и сел на колеса в Надькереш. 10 минут атковали круг, 1 ФВ атака изнутри круга на Ничипорук, его стрелок Волков сбил ФВ, который упал и сгорел. Грылев подбит и ушел с дымящимся мотором на свою территорию. НБЗ. Плюс еще сбили 1 ФВ и 1 Ме-109."

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

Yes, I remembered right, first Grilev was taken POW. This doc mentions the partisans, etc...

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

Folks,

Just some marginal data. On September 23, 1944 SG 2 Fw 190F pilots (Obstlt. Hans-Ulrich Rudel, Hptm. Karl Kennel, Uffz. Koppenhöfer) claimed 3 IL-2s in the Torda/Turda area. This day 5 VA, 7 GvShAD has lost 3 IL-2s indeed as follows:

5 VA, 130 GvShAP, IL-2, gv.ml.l-t Kravchenko
5 VA, 131 GvShAP, IL-2, gv.l-t Puhov
5 VA, 131 GvShAP, IL-2, gv.r-y Arkaev

Mechanical paper of 5 VA, 7 GvShAD (without crew lists) erased 7 IL-2s (as prev. days' losses) between October 1-15, 1944 to AAA (which, of course, -partially- could be dogfight as well):

IL-2m3, S/N: 10338
IL-2m3, S/N: 302787
IL-2m3, S/N: 302949
IL-2m3, S/N: 1873880, engine: 253297
IL-2m3, S/N: 11634, engine: 2510476
IL-2m3, S/N: 1877070
IL-2m3, S/N: 302765

No further info on matching crews, but chances are the 3 IL-2 losses listed above were among the 7 written-off serials of the 7 GvShAD.

I think reported SG 2 claims could be correct this time.

Gabor