Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum - VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.

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- - VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses. (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=11727)

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.

Yes, yogybär, that is what I talking about, directly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by yogybär (Post 58808)

And I am sure Soviets would NOT use IL-2 so low.

Typo? Do You mean "Il-4 so low"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by yogybär (Post 58808)

3) IL-4 was mostly used in NBAPs (Night Bombers)

Actually, Il-4 (with DB-3F) WERE used in mid summer, july-august as DAY bomber, during Kursk battle. But suffered great losses, and trasferred to night-only actions.

Genlmen - lets try to confirm/unconfirm JG 51 losses in air and Luftwaffe losses on the ground by Il-2 and Pe-2 attacks. Any ideas what geschwader could suffer losses on that day? 8 june, 10 june?

Hello guys

First, a huge thank you to Evgeny for posting this information. It is great to have this information regarding Russian operations on the Eastern Front. The only thing that I can add in regards to JG 51 losses on either day is this quote from Weal's JG 51 book: "One report claims that the Focke-Wulfs destroyed 51 enemy machines without loss on 8 June!" Please note that Weal is not always reliable according to what I have read but hopefully someone with access to a JG 51 loss list can add to or correct this information. Concerning the Il-4, I too have seen the Il-2 identified as Il-5 and Il-7, particularly by JG 52, but I have my doubts that this designation would have been used for anything but a twin-engined bomber in the majority of instances. Just my two cents. Concerning the raids, we already know that IV. and 15.(span)/JG 51 engaged the raid to Sescha and II./JG 3 engaged the raid to Kharkov and Mikoyanovka on 10 June, but has anyone attempted as of yet to sort out the 8 June raids?

Horrido!

Leo

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.

From Tony Woods:

jan - june 1943 claimed:
198 x Il-2 (actually Il-2 one seater & twoseater)
41 x Il-2 m.H. (correctly identified, Il-2 twoseater)
23 x Il-4 (actually Il-2 twoseater)
46 x Il-5 (actually Il-2 twoseater)
40 x Il-7 (actually Il-2 twoseater)

40 x DB-3 (actually DB-3F and Il-4 two engine bombers)

jul - dec 1943 claimed:
1027 x Il-2 (actually Il-2 one seater & twoseater)
1054 x Il-2 m.H. (correctly identified, Il-2 twoseater)
118 x Il-4 (actually Il-2 twoseater)
62 x Il-5 (actually Il-2 twoseater)
67 x Il-7 (actually Il-2 twoseater)

126 x DB-3 (actually DB-3F and Il-4 two engine bombers)

From O.Rastrenin "Il-2" monography:

Quote:

Combat losses of Il-2 in 1943:

Shot down in air combats: 1090
Shot down by AAA fire: 1468
Failed to return from combat mission (unknown readon):: 917
Destroyed on airfields: 40

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.

Hi Evgeny,

Thank you very much for posting the data.

Is there any chance you could post up similar data for the VVS attacks on 6-8May43.

Best Regards

Andy Fletcher

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.

Yes, a bit later.

There is a big difference between those operations.

6-8 may it was many small raids, to 10 or more airfields in each under attack.

8 - 10 june only few airfields were under attack, but attack groups of VVS were large.

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evgeny Velichko (Post 58844)

Yes, a bit later.

Excellent, look forward to it.

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.

I found this in Jagdgeschwader 3 "Udet" in WW2 by Jochen Prien and Gerhard Stemmer. It stated in the losses for 08Jun43 5./JG3 Obgefr. Heinz Welsch (MIA) Air combat LaGG-3, 20 km west of Belgorod Bf-109G-4 Wkr. 14 858 and II/JG3 engine trouble, belly landing south of Belgorod, 35%. He stated in that Welsch was escorting Ju-87 when he was shot down by La-5's.

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.

Hi Evgeny,

Fantastic info. Thank you.
If possible, please keep posting.

Best Regards
Marco

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.

I is the only what I found.

8 june 1943

FW190A-3, 5327, Oblt. Alejander Perez Gonzales, 15.(sp)/JG 51, KIA on 8.6.43 due to enemy fighters. Pl.Qu. 34413, 100%

Bf 109G-4, 15199, II./JG 3, Bauchlandung on 8.6.43 due to engine damage. Pilot O.K.SW of Bjelgorod. 35%.

Bf 109G-4, 14858, Gefr. Heinz Welsch,5./JG 3, schwarz 2 + -, MIA on 8.6.43, cause unknown. Pl.Qu. 61/12, 100%

On earth:
He111H-16, 8206, II./KG 55, Bombenwurf on 8.6.43.Fl.Pl. Seschtschinskaja 100%
He111H-16, 160415, II./KG 55, Bombenwurf on 8.6.43. Fl.Pl. Seschtschinskaja, 10%
He111H-16, 8508, II./KG 55, Bombenwurf on 8.6.43. Fl.Pl. Seschtschinskaja 10%
He111H-6, 4868, II./KG 55, Bombenwurf on 8.6.43. Fl.Pl. Seschtschinskaja 20%

10 june 1943.

Fw 190F-3, 70037, 1./Sch.G.1, Crash landing on 10.6.43., Fl.Pl.Dnepropetrowsk, 35%.

Any supplimental ground claims confirmed?

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.

6 may 1943:

1 VA raids:

1 - Raid to attack airfields Shatalovo and Borovskoye(~4:30)
2 - Raid to attack airfield Borovskoye (19:20-19:25)
3 - Raid to attack airfield Sescha (5:30-5:45)
4 - Raid to attack airfield Bryansk (5:17-5:37)
5 - Raid to attack airfield Lubinka (~12:00)
6 - Raid to attack airfield Lubinka (~17:00)
7 - Raid to attack airfield Lubinka (~19:00)

2 VA raids:

1 - Raid to attack airfield Rogan (~5:20)
2 - Raid to attack airfield Kharkov-Aleshki (5:20-5:30)
3 - Raid to attack airfield Kharkov-Sokol'niki (5:30-5:32)
4 - Raid to attack airfields Poltava and Osnova (?)
5 - Raid to attack airfield Kharkov-Sokol'niki (~15:00)
6 - Raid to attack airfield Kharkov-Aleshki (~15:00)

17 VA raids:

1 - Raid to attack airfield Kramatorskaya (5:03 - 5:17)
2 - Raid to attack airfield Kramatorskaya (~19:15)
3 - Raid to attack airfield Dnepropetrovsk-South (~6:10)

15 VA raid:

1 - Raid to attack airfield Orel-Central (~6:30)

16 VA raids:

1 - Raid to attack airfield Bolshaya Kulikovka (?)
2 - Raid to attack airfield Orel-GVF (~14:30)
3 - Raid to attack airfield Khmelevaya and Gat' (Knubr') (14:28 - 14:30)
4 - Raid to attack airfield Orel-Central (~14:20)
5 - Raid to attack airfield Orel-Central (14:30 - 14:35)

8 VA raids:

1 - Raid to attack airfield Kutejnikovo (~13:00)
2 - Raid to attack airfield Stalino (~5:45)

7 may 1943:

16 VA raids:

1 - Raid to attack airfield Bolshaya Kulikovka (~5:22)
2 - Raid to attack airfields Khmelevaya (5:50-5:55) and Orel-Central (~6:00)

2 VA raids:

1 - Raid to attack airfields Kharkov-Aleshki and Kharkov-Sokol'niki (evening)
2 - Raid to attack airfield Rogan' (~19:15)

1 VA raids:

1 - Raid to attack airfield Sescha (~5:00)
2 - Raid to attack airfield Bryansk (~5:07)
3 - Raid to attack airfield Lubinka (?)

8 VA raids:

1 - Raid to attack airfield Ilovajsk (~8:45)
2 - Raid to attack airfield Ilovajsk (~14:25)
3 - Raid to attack airfield Kutejnikovo (~9:00)
4 - Raid to attack airfield Stalino (~9:00)
5 - Raid to attack airfield Kramatorskaya (~5:10)

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It will be hard to describe all.. but I'll try :)