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German docs in TSAMO
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Re: German docs in TSAMO
Thanks for sharing this!
Regards, Norbert |
Re: German docs in TSAMO
And suddenly Christmas Day was here. Thanks for the link.
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Re: German docs in TSAMO
Hello
Thanks for posting the link. Though going under Verzeichnis or power up the search criteria one can find only political documents . For example I inserted word " Luftwaffe " no search results . Is this an aviation related data base or do I need to enter Russian characters to get specific results ? |
Re: German docs in TSAMO
researcher111
There are some Luftwaffe related folders already digitised: Findbuch 12454 - Heeresgruppe B/Mitte Akte 334 Findbuch 12454 - Heeresgruppe B/Mitte Akte 375 Findbuch 12454 - Heeresgruppe B/Mitte Akte 385 |
Re: German docs in TSAMO
That's right, Andrei. I have visually scanned through all the folders over the last week and those three Akten from the H.Gr. Mitte collection are the only ones with significant Luftwaffe material, e.g., Kräfteverteilung d. Flakartillerie 9.8.41, Lw.-Kdo. Ost Kriegsgliederung 30.5.42, Lw.-Kdo. Ost Kriegsgliederung 16.8.42, Lw.-Kdo. Ost Kriegsgliederung 26.8.42, etc. The same 3 folders are also chuck full of documents on the Aufklärungsverbände on the Central Sector of the E.F. as well as Luftwaffe daily reports and unit movements. The OKW and OKH collections have very little Luftwaffe material at all, much less good "stuff" of interest.
I understand that this digitization project at TSAMO is just getting started and that there should be a lot more material available soon. Is that your understanding, too? L. |
Re: German docs in TSAMO
Andrei - Thanks
Larry , you are absolutely right, the project is on infancy and I don't see at the moment real relevant stuff . The material I am searching at TzaMO is not for free and in my case I've lost time and money and didn't get a thing . More interesting are the Luftwaffe Archiven Freiburg i.B |
Re: German docs in TSAMO
Andrei
I note you are from Poltawa, got a question...are there any memorials left at Poltawa, Pyriatin and Mirgorod of the Frantic Operations such musems etc for example I am aware of something like that in Poltawa |
Re: German docs in TSAMO
Larry
Yes, it is stated that the whole collection of German documents held in TsAMO would be digitised by 2018 researcher111 Yes, there is an exhibition in local aviation museum, which when I visited it quite a long time ago consisted of some photographs and scale models. And there is also a small memorial in Poltava. Not much, but better then nothing |
Re: German docs in TSAMO
Thanks Andrei, maybe upon an opportunity you would
be so kind and post some photos , thanks and best regards Alex |
Re: German docs in TSAMO
Thank you for the confirmation, Andrei. I am learning a lot as this project unfolds. For example, that the captured German documents formerly held in the Osobyi Archiv in Moscow have all been moved to the Ministry of Defense Archive in Podolsk (TsAMO). The German documents captured by the Red Army front units as they advanced through Russia and the eastern European countries 1943-45 were always at TsAMO, while those stored at the Osobyi Archiv were mainly non-military documents captured in Berlin in May 1945. This helps explain why the Heeresgruppe Mitte collection is so large - it was overrun in June/July 1944 before the Germans could burn everything. I do not think there will be as much material for the H.Gr.Nord and H.Gr. Süd areas.
Thanks again for bringing this collection and its release to our attention. L. |
Re: German docs in TSAMO
Yes, it is stated that the whole collection of German documents held in TsAMO would be digitised by 2018
Will all of the documents detailing soviet losses in air combat also be digitised...? That we may have a soviet equivalent to Chorley's Bomber Command Losses, Frank's Fighter Command Losses and Hey & Bishop's 8th and 9th AAF Losses....? Some people (not me of course...) would give their eye teeth for that... |
Re: German docs in TSAMO
Larry, regarding TzaMO their personnel archives were and continue to
be near St Petersburg . I was wondering why the other were moved to Podolsk rather centralised. As far as I am concerned I firmly believe that the personnel archives won't be integrated into those and will continue to be subject to charges for those seeking personnel info. |
Re: German docs in TSAMO
Researcher111 -
I think we are talking about two different archives. The one you referred to is probably for Soviet/Russian personnel records. The Osobyi Archiv ("Special Archive") in Moscow held documents from the non-military ministries, most of these documents being found in Berlin in May-June 1945. http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffma...ves%20Page.htm I am almost certain I read recently that these records had been moved to Podolsk, but I could be wrong. The controversial British historian, David Irving, was the first or one of the first foreigners to be allowed entry to this archive. It was in the mid-1990's and the Osobyi Archiv held the long-missing final volume of the Josef Göbbels diaries. Irving translated it and used it for his 1996 book on Goebbels: http://www.amazon.com/Goebbels-Maste.../dp/1872197132 L. |
Re: German docs in TSAMO
Just to add to Larry and Andrei's comments below
There are a few Luftwaffe orientated items in the OKH folder Findbuch 12451 - OKH - Akte 36. Richtlinien für die Zusammenarbeit Heer - Luftwaffe auf G... Akte 36. Richtlinien für die Zusammenarbeit Heer - Luftwaffe auf Grund der Erfahrungen im polnis... - Guidelines for Cooperation army - Air Force based on experience in the Polish campaign. Findbuch 12451 - OKH - Akte 45. Erfahrungsberichte, Weisungen und Richtlinien des OKH für... Akte 45. Erfahrungsberichte, Weisungen und Richtlinien des OKH für die Luftwaffe, die Flak-Artil... - Advice, instructions and guidelines of the OKH for the Air Force, the anti-aircraft artillery and Aufklärungs squadrons in terms of cooperation with the army Findbuch 12451 - OKH - Akte 837. Bezirke für Luftbildaufnahme (Bialystok-Grodno-Belsk-Lom.. - Districts for aerial photography (Bialystok-Grodno-Belsk-Lomzha-Ostrolenka) |
Re: German docs in TSAMO
Larry , indeed and you are correct , thanks again
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Re: German docs in TSAMO
Gentlemen,
A quick suggestion. Given that a few of us have a clear interest in the material, why don't we create a deailed list of the contents of the Luftwaffe-related documents in this collection and post it in a pinned thread? This should be a quick job for several people and its utility will only increase over time, as the Russian digitisation project progresses. I will, of course, make a full contribution. Regards, Paul |
Re: German docs in TSAMO
Good idea!
The above attached thread with working links will be reasonable solution. Some documents of LF4 and I FLak Korps for August 1942 - May 1944 and operational files of LF2 for Taifun operation are to follow. They are contained in "inventory 500" of trophy documents in TsAMO as well. |
Re: German docs in TSAMO
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I am glad that you agree! I think a 'cleaned up' thread with just the information about these documents might be more useful, but I will defer to the judgment of the moderators on this issue. Thank you for providing information about the documents due to be digitised in the future. Do you know this because you have contacted the staff involved in this project, or because you have previously accessed the documents yourself at TsAMO? I ask just in case you know any details regarding the usefulness of these documents, besides the general topic that they cover. Regards, Paul |
Re: German docs in TSAMO
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There was a so-called "open" inventory 500 with trophy documents, translated into Russian. The batch included around thousand documents and they were available to the researchers at least for past ten years. It constituted a mixture of documents including operational, political, economic and other stuff captured within different periods of war. Rather little of them related to Luftwaffe to different extent. Several titles that I mentioned above were included in this inventory, of them I ordered and worked with two documents of LF 4, that contained several directions on German-Romanian cooperation and responsibilities division in Stalingrad sector for October-November 1942. If they fulfil the idea of digitising all trophy documents in "inventory 500" I assume those documents will sooner or later appear in the net in originals. However, there are a handful of trophy docs in other inventories as well (they were used in practical purposes thoughout the war) and I'am not sure they are subjected to the process of digitising. |
Re: German docs in TSAMO
Akte 120. Lage und Bedürfnisse der rumänischen Luftwaffe. Luftabwehr Rumäniens (1941 - 1944).
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/d...de/grid/zoom/1 Verluste in Flugzeugen und Piloten von 22.6.1941 - 1.8.1944 (page 4): 625 in total, of which 221 fighters, 85 bombers, 87 surveillance planes, 19 seaplanes, 201 liaison planes, 12 transport planes 352 airmen killed |
Re: German docs in TSAMO
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Situation and requirements of the Romanian Air Force. Air defence of Romania (22 June 1941 - 1 August 1944). The file contains the following documents: 2 diagrams "The Romanian Air Force against the Anglo-American air raids. Losses of aircraft and personnel." (Sheets.1-2); Diagram "Romanian Air Force: Establishment, current inventory, deficit compared to establishment, losses of aircraft and pilots from 22 June 1941 to 1 August 1944" (Sheet.3); Map "Air defences of Romania - fighters" (Sheet.4); Map "Air defences of Romania - anti-aircraft artillery" (State - 1 August 1944)" (Sheet.5). Thanks are due to Dénes Bernád for drawing my attention to the importance of the summary information on Romanian strength and losses contained in Sheet 3. If we can assemble a set of English translations for the other relevant documents, this will be a very good thread :) Regards, Paul |
Re: German docs in TSAMO
Hi Paul -
I have just completed a second run through all 3 of these record groups - OKW, OKH and H.Gr. Mitte - and found Luftwaffe material of value and interest in just 5 folders: Record Group 12454 Akte 334, Akte 375, Akte 385, Akte 405 and Akte 409. The 5 Akten are specifically marked "Luftwaffe". This should save resarchers some time. So far, this collection is pretty much of a disappointment, but that's not a surprise once I scanned through it a couple of times and saw what the files were: nearly all Heeresgruppe Mitte Ia, Ic and Ic/AO Morgen-, Zwischen-, Tages- und Abendberichten. Many have a small 2 or 3 sentence summary of Lw.-Kdo. Ost (later Luftflotte 6) operations for the day, but these are shorn of all details - units are not identified and specific locations are usually not given. These thousands and thousands of pages are German Army ground-pounder reports and only occasionally mention the Luftwaffe in passing. What little of interest there is on the Luftwaffe is confined to the 5 Koluft files listed above. You have mentioned the need for English translations several times and I am not sure why. Wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that most researchers interested in German documents would already have a working knowledge of written German? In those few cases where this might not be true, the researcher can certainly cut and paste the file's descriptive title into Google Translate and get a reasonable translation into their own language. Many researchers who have no German may be French, Finnish, Greek, Turkish, etc., and have little English either. Are my assumptions on this wrong? L. |
Re: German docs in TSAMO
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Thank you very much for your sterling work, as always! Your assumption that many researchers will not have a need for an English translation is correct. In fact, that group counts me among its members :) Nevertheless, I think it would be good to do the translations and post them here, as an aide-mémoire. For my own part, there is some material there which is not of direct relevance to my current research, but I might want to come back to it in the future. As it is now clear that there are very few translations to do, I shall do them and post them here myself. Regards, Paul |
Re: German docs in TSAMO
Hi Paul,
I guess we should all keep the faith as the 3 collections up on the website (OKW, OKH, H.Gr. Mitte) are but a small fraction of the total - maybe 75,000 pages out of the 2,500,000 pages the TsAMO project claims to have. That's just 3%. That leaves a lot of room for the eventual appearance of additional Luftwaffe folders and files between now and the target completion date in 2018. Who knows? There may be some really good material just around the corner. :whoa: :grin: L. |
Re: German docs in TSAMO
O.K.H. Akte 440 contains lots of Luftwaffe Material. Activation of Stb./J.G. 3, J.G. 27, various Kampfgruppen, Schools etc...
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Re: German docs in TSAMO
Thanks for adding that, Agan Wodas. I guess I missed it.
L. :blink: |
Re: German docs in TSAMO
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First of all, apologies for the delay, got caught up in various tasks this week! I hope that you are right and that the collection will eventually 'give up' some treasures :) I have to say that I do not think that all the documents are going to be uploaded by 2018, they would have to work very efficiently to achieve that, which is unlikely. On the other hand, there is already something to build on, so a few of us will be waiting eagerly for news! On a specific technical point, does anyone here know whether the website sends update notices? That would make life slightly easier. Regards, Paul |
Re: German docs in TSAMO
First batch of translated annotations follows, for the 5 documents from the Army Group Centre collection:
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/d...de/grid/zoom/1 Reference: Bestand 500 Findbuch 12454 - Heeresgruppe B/Mitte Akte 334 Annotation: Annex to War Diary of Army Group Centre – Operations section - Document XIII: Luftwaffe, folder 2: reports of VIII Fliegerkorps regarding anti-partisan warfare, bombing attacks on own troops, operational reports, aerial reconnaissance reports etc. Start Date: 24/11/1941 End Date: 31/03/1942 http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/d...de/grid/zoom/1 Reference: Bestand 500 Findbuch 12454 - Heeresgruppe B/Mitte Akte 375 Annotation: Annex to War Diary of Army Group Centre – Operations section - Document XIII: Luftwaffe, folder 1: Orders for Operation Typhoon including troop movement orders, winter instructions, combat reports, service instructions, aerial reconnaissance reports, Luftwaffenkommando Ost order of battle, measures for the defence of the Luftwaffe ground organisation etc. Start Date: 27/06/1941 End Date: 10/06/1944 http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/d...de/grid/zoom/1 Reference: Bestand 500 Findbuch 12454 - Heeresgruppe B/Mitte Akte 385 Annotation: Annex to War Diary of Army Group Centre – Operations section - Document XIII: Luftwaffe, folder 3: reports regarding anti-partisan warfare, air transport for the Army Group, battlefield reconnaissance, operational missions etc. Start Date: 01/04/1942 End Date: 28/06/1942 http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/d...de/grid/zoom/1 Reference: Bestand 500 Findbuch 12454 - Heeresgruppe B/Mitte Akte 405 Annotation: Records of the Director of Training of Army Group Centre: replacements, guideline documents of the OKH (1.4.42-31.8.42), and correspondence regarding replacement personnel, reports on replacements and losses, unfilled positions, replacement units etc. Start date 02/04/1942 End Date 31/08/1942 http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/d...de/grid/zoom/1 Reference: Bestand 500 Findbuch 12454 - Heeresgruppe B/Mitte Akte 409 Annotation: Annex to War Diary of Army Group Centre – Operations section - Document XIII: Luftwaffe, folder 4 (1.7.42-31.8.42): - information on the aircraft reporting service, organisation of Luftwaffenkommando Ost, combat reports, comments on Red Army camouflage; decisions, experiences and policies of the General of the Flak Arm (pamphlet), for fighting partisans etc. Start Date: 15/04/1942 End Date: 30/08/1942 Regards, Paul |
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Re: German docs in TSAMO
Further to OKH Akte 440. The pages with Luftwaffe documents are listed below. The content is virtually all unit/establishment formation orders issued by Gen.Qu.(2.Abt.)/Genst.d.Lw. between August and November 1939. Although excellent primary documentation, it may be of only very limited interest to most researchers. Pages: 1 - 70 146 - 64 190 - 214 236 245 253 - 61. The rest is all Heer (Army) organizational material. L. |
Re: German docs in TSAMO
A hint to our Danish freinds. OKH Akte 555 contains a report from the Befehlshaber die deutche Truppen in Dänemark including the operations by the Luftwaffe in connection With the disarming of the Danish forces in August 1943. Also a list with commanders of Luftwaffe units in Denmark at the time of this operation.
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Re: German docs in TSAMO
OKH akte 555 is not new. It has been known, in Denmark since 1945. But interesting anyway.
Junker |
Re: German docs in TSAMO
Here is the second, and thus far final, set of translated annotations. Note that it starts with a new document, Akte 118, which covers Romanian Air Force losses and has not been mentioned so far in this thread. Do not confuse it with Akte 120, which is an Air Force-specific document.
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/d...de/grid/zoom/1 Reference: Bestand 500 Findbuch 12450 - OKW Akte 118 Annotation: Reports on the losses of weapons and materiel by the Romanian Armed Forces and about the method by which they were replaced in 1941 - 1944. The following documents are available in the file: 1) Chart of the losses of the Romanian Air Force and their replacement (Sheet.1); 2) Chart of the losses of the Romanian Navy and their replacement (Sheet.2); 3) Chart of the losses of the Romanian merchant marine and their replacement (Sheet.3); 4) Chart of the losses of the Romanian riverine vessels and their replacement (Sheet.4); 5) notes in German and Russian (Sheet.5-5a); 6) Chart of weapons and materiel deliveries to the Romanian army (Sheet.5a-7). (1) Start Date: 01/06/1941 End Date: 25/02/1944 http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/d...de/grid/zoom/1 Reference: Bestand 500 Findbuch 12450 - OKW Akte 120 Annotation: Situation and requirements of the Romanian Air Force. Air defence of Romania (22 June 1941 - 1 August 1944). The file contains the following documents: 2 diagrams "The Romanian Air Force against the Anglo-American air raids. Losses of aircraft and personnel." (Sheets.1-2); Diagram "Romanian Air Force: Establishment, current inventory, deficit compared to establishment, losses of aircraft and pilots from 22 June 1941 to 1 August 1944" (Sheet.3); Map "Air defences of Romania - fighters" (Sheet.4); Map "Air defences of Romania - anti-aircraft artillery" (State - 1 August 1944)" (Sheet.5). Start Date: 17/10/1943 End Date: 01/08/1944 http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/d...de/grid/zoom/1 Reference: Bestand 500 Findbuch 12451 - OKH Akte 36 Annotation: A detailed analysis of the Army-Air Force cooperation on the basis of experience in the Polish campaign. Start Date: 25/11/1939 End Date: 25/11/1939 http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/d...de/grid/zoom/1 Reference: Bestand 500 Findbuch 12451 - OKH Akte 45 Annotation: After-action summaries, instructions and guidelines of the OKH for the Air Force, the flak artillery and reconnaissance squadrons on the subject of cooperation with the army. Guidelines for the organization and deployment of aerial reconnaissance units with a Panzer Corps. Figures and drawings. Start Date: 16/10/1939 End Date: 25/10/1940 http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/d...de/grid/zoom/1 Reference: Bestand 500 Findbuch 12451 - OKH Akte 440 Annotation: Records of the Chief of Operations of Army Group Center: reports of air attacks on own troops, subordination of flying schools, formation of fighter units, infantry divisions, among others Bomer units, new units formed, personnel changes. Specific rules for medical officers. Deployment for trench digging on the eastern border. Start Date: 24/06/1939 End Date: 06/10/1939 http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/d...de/grid/zoom/1 Reference: Bestand 500 Findbuch 12451 - OKH Akte 555 Annotation: Commander of the German forces in Denmark, Chief of Intelligence / Historical review of military activity: The reasons for the introduction of the state of emergency in Denmark and its implementation on 29 August 1943, preparatory measures, implementation, the disarmament of the Danish armed forces. operations thereafter, annexes, drawings. Start Date: 09/04/1940 End Date: 06/10/1943 http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/d...de/grid/zoom/1 Reference: Bestand 500 Findbuch 12451 - OKH Akte 837 Annotation: Districts designated for aerial photographic missions (Bialystok-Grodno-Belsk-Lomzha-Ostrolenka). Start Date: 11/04/1941 End Date: 07/06/1941 Regards, Paul |
Re: German docs in TSAMO
Hi guys, any idea on how could one check for updates ? I can't see any changelog / news
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Re: German docs in TSAMO
Hi muggs -
There does not seem to be a "Updates" or "News" page associated with this website, so I go there once every 2 to 4 weeks and click the various tabs to see if anything has been added. The last time I was there was just a few days ago and I found no evidence of any additions. Could Putin's change in attitude toward the West during 2014-15 have resulted in a slowdown for this project? Perhaps TSAMO has been forced to lay people off who were working on this due to the bad state of the Russian economy? L. |
Re: German docs in TSAMO
Thanks for your reply Larry, the end of the project is scheduled for 2018...but indeed I have some doubts myself that this project will be finalized..
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Re: German docs in TSAMO
Quick update, a new set of data has been added :
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/d...799-opis-12480 |
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