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-   -   Late war Bf 109 pictures source (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=27108)

ouidjat 20th September 2019 15:24

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thanks John, Nick, Marc, Kees and Matti …

Note that Mombeeck did write:
“18/12/44 Fhr. Karl Jettner III./JG 6 Bf 109 G-14 (785821)
4 white Reason and place unknown”
Here: https://www.luftwaffe.be/missing-in-action-jg-6/

While Michael Balss added (Eifel/Lüttich) in his Place/Location column … Which is quite far from the place the machine has been found.

Again, and last: left the machine has been found in a quite good state according the circumstances of this lost and we just wait Matti to add a word concerning the data he kept as seen above.
Because, effectively it is probable the pilot escaped alive of this crash …

Regards,
Franck.

Marc-André Haldimann 21st September 2019 10:48

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ouidjat (Post 275001)
Thanks John, Nick, Marc, Kees and Matti …

Note that Mombeeck did write:
“18/12/44 Fhr. Karl Jettner III./JG 6 Bf 109 G-14 (785821)
4 white Reason and place unknown”
Here: https://www.luftwaffe.be/missing-in-action-jg-6/

While Michael Balss added (Eifel/Lüttich) in his Place/Location column … Which is quite far from the place the machine has been found.

Again, and last: left the machine has been found in a quite good state according the circumstances of this lost and we just wait Matti to add a word concerning the data he kept as seen above.
Because, effectively it is probable the pilot escaped alive of this crash …

Regards,
Franck.


Franck,

Somehow this story rings a bell : I remember having read in this forum the terrible story of a Jagdflieger and his Bf 109 G-14 he managed to crash land in a clearance in the woods in December 1944, only top be discovered dead in his cockpit by forestry workers in February 45... Could this be the case behind this apparent mystery of Fhr. Jettner and W.Nr. 785 821 ?

Cheers
Marc

John Manrho 21st September 2019 17:34

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
I believe this is a more complex matter and we need to address it from several angles to come to the right conclusion. Let me share my thoughts how I look at this….

First, do these two picture`s belong to the location “Marshalling yard, S.E. of Naunheim”? The answer can be found in the combination of the presence of a Bf 109 “weisse 4”, a “weisse 6” (with black outline and green RVT Band) and the Fw 190 with markings <II + I of which the aft section can be seen in one of the pictures. Without a doubt these pictures are taken at Naunheim marshalling yards.

Which Naunheim is it? Well there are two losses in the A.I.2.(g) Report Serial No. 269 which give a clear indication;

• Fw 190A-8, 734392, 12./JG 11, lost 23.12.44. Ofw. Albert Holland was killed and last seen flying southeast of Lüttich. Not sure if he has a grave, but he must have crashed on German territory west of the Rhine.
• Bf 109G-14, 462912, 8./JG 2, lost 17.12.44. Gefr. Anton Brantner was killed near Weissenthurm (other sources say Raum Koblenz) and he is now buried at Kruft.

Both (and there are more losses in the list) confirm that the Naunheim in A.I.2.(g) Report Serial No. 269 is the Naunheim west of Münstermaifeld. This location must have been a collecting point for aircraft wreckage west of the Koblenz area.

Then we move forward to the “weisse 4”, Werknummer 785821, which clearly made a belly-landing and was recovered by the Germans.

In RL2-III-1170, page 30 & 31, there are three III./JG 6 losses mentioned for 18.12.1944, all without a location;

• Bf 109G-14, 784981, gelbe 2, III./JG 6, Uffz. Gerhard Döpke, vermisst
• Bf 109G-14, 784985, schwarze 1, III./JG 6, Uffz. Ernst Beiersdörfer, vermisst
• Bf 109G-14, 785821, weisse 4, III./JG 6, Fhr. Karl Jettner, vermisst

On 18.12.1944 III./JG 6 flew a mission in the Köln-Koblenz area, so the general area of these losses should be in that area. None of them are mentioned in the NVM, but unfortunately JG 6 NVM are known to be incomplete. However, we know that Döpke was later killed in January 1945 and Beiersdörfer in April 1945. Both still flew with JG 6 at that time. So it seems they bailed out of their a/c on 18.12.44 and returned to their unit.

Fhr. Karl Jettner is more difficult. I researched at every corner in the files of the WAST, VDK and the German Red Cross, but a pilot with that name does not exists. I also tried phonetic variants and there was no match either. I found one Karl Jettner, born 1925, but he was reported missing in November 1944 as a Panzergrenadier.

If we look at the NVM for Ofhr. Karl-Friedrich Fütterer, we note that he made an emergency landing near Weißenthurm after receiving hits in his cockpit. The damage was reported as 40% and he landed wounded in Lazarett Andernach. Handwritten it was added that he flew Bf 109G-6, Werknummer 18587.

After careful analysis I believe that with 99% certainty the loss of Jettner and Fütterer are the same. The RL-III-1170 files (Genst.Gen.Qu.6.Abt) reports are known to be full of errors concerning names, often misspelled. We also know that III./JG 6 flew only with G-14’s and a G-6 loss so late does not seem to be likely…..the location of the recovered 785821 matches with the location where Fütterer made his belly-landing (Note: also Brantner crashed near Weißenthurm and his a/c is also at Naunheim).

Concerning markings, we see that 785821 has no RVT-Band and no vertical III. Gruppe bar. Although I have considerable amount of photo material on JG 6, questions remain concerning their markings. First, we do know that RVT-bands were carried during Bodenplatte. We do not know when they exactly were applied. I have pictures of III./JG a/c with a III. Gruppe vertical bar, but they all come from the March-April 1945 timeframe. Of course I./JG 5 did not carry any bar and we simply do not know when III./JG 6 started to apply these. Was it right away in October 1944? Probably not.

So, finally, I believe 785821 is Ofhr. Karl Fütterer’s a/c…. I discussed this with Matti some time ago….actually he came up with the idea and I agreed.

Regards,

John

Marc-André Haldimann 22nd September 2019 00:10

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thanks, John, for your thorough and documented answer. So we can reasonably match 785821 with Ofhr. Fütterer.

I am highly grateful for the time Matti and you took to narrow down this riddle and for fully exposing your deductive work. It is highly appreciated.

Sincerely
Marc

John Manrho 17th October 2019 19:14

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thanks Marc for the nice words......I had expected a few more comments....:-)

John

sgeorges4 6th November 2019 21:30

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
if this aircraft is from the 410 serie,wouldn't he be a G6 made by Erla? (could also be a G6/U2 or a G14) https://www.flickr.com/photos/280920...7625707737498/

Marc-André Haldimann 8th December 2019 18:01

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Here two new photos from the Russian archives by courtesy of Petr Zaika. With all my thanks to Spektor, over on modelforum.cz, for the pointer.

1. Erla built Bf 109 G-14, unit and location unknown.
https://vif2ne.org/nvi/forum/files/Z...109_kopiya.jpg

2. Possibly an Mtt built Bf 109 G-14 "Schwarze 18" from 2./JG 53, given the black RVB band. Notice also the black stripe along the wing root.
https://vif2ne.org/nvi/forum/files/Z...9_2_kopiya.jpg

Cheers
Marc

Marc-André Haldimann 4th May 2020 00:19

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi there Gang,

A new Erla built Bf 109 G-14 shows up tonight, thanks to Batur Avgan, over on Late war Bf 109's Group, FB:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/BEST-Vetera...sAAOSwYcdeqYSt

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/kAsAA...YSt/s-l500.jpg
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/wWkAA...YSt/s-l500.jpg
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/IO4AA...YSt/s-l500.jpg

IMHO, the close-up of the tail allows to read quite clearly the last four digits of the W.Nr.: 0861. It is thus highly probable we have here W.Nr. 460861 for which I have no information so far.

As for the location, Gahro and October 1944 are clear to read. There are also two family names, probably those of the two pilots on this photo, but my Sütterlin abilities are a bit on the low side. They could read "Gr..ke" and "Terbeck" (?).

I would be very grateful for a clear deciphering of their names. This could ultimately help identify positively the unit as Fl.Pl. Gahro was a busy place then, hosting both I./JG 4 and I./JG 300 and, for the sake of completeness, also II./JG 11 though the lack of a II Gruppe bar does make it less likely. Any detail about W.Nr. 460861 would be most welcome as well.

Thanks in advance
Marc

Nick Beale 4th May 2020 08:01

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Marc, I think you have a typo: first you say 0461 and then suggest 460861 as the full number. The digits in the photo definitely look like 0861 to me.

Marc-André Haldimann 4th May 2020 10:25

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Beale (Post 287894)
Marc, I think you have a typo: first you say 0461 and then suggest 460861 as the full number. The digits in the photo definitely look like 0861 to me.

Yup, my bad, Nick ! Thanks for catching it. It is indeed IMHO W.Nr. 460861.

Cheers
Marc


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