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-   -   Late war Bf 109 pictures source (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=27108)

Cpt_Farrel 10th January 2013 22:58

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Just commented on this in the photostream but I'll repeat it here, I rather believe WNF for three reasons:

1. Camouflage looks more like WNF than Erla
2. I believe that by the summer of 1944 Erla used the tall tails on their G-6's
3. The setup looks different from the photos I've seen from Erla taken in 1943.

Cheers! / Anders

Marc-André Haldimann 10th January 2013 23:01

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
And last move for tonight: I've created a JGr 300 set in order to regroup all pictures known to me illustrating the effective application of the short horizontal black bar on the blue white blue RV bands, according to the order issued 26 April (!) 1945.

There are all told six different machines:

1. Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. unknown "Gelbe 1", JGr 300, Germany, April 1945. Source: ebay.de.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625208099917

2. Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 150 816 "Schwarze 4", JGr 300, Langensalza, June 1945. Source: LEMB Forum.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625208099917

3. Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr 49x xxx "Schwarze 1", JGr. 300, Germany, May 1945. Source: Hildebrandt 1989, p. 3.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57632486398923

4. Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. unknown "Gelbe 6", JGr 300, Neubiberg, Germany, May 1945. Source: Ebay auction.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57632486398923

5. Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 49. .06 "Schwarzer Winkel", JGr 300, Germany, May 1945. Source: Ebay auction.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57632486398923

6. Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. unknown, "Blaue 2", Fw. Josef Umminger, 16./JG 300 with JGr 300 horizontal bar, Buchau, 8 May 1945. Source: Collection Hesse, Luftwaffe im Focus Spezial no 3, Photo 60.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57632486398923

Looking for an other one;-))

Cheers
Marc

Marc-André Haldimann 10th January 2013 23:04

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cpt_Farrel (Post 160464)
Just commented on this in the photostream but I'll repeat it here, I rather believe WNF for three reasons:

1. Camouflage looks more like WNF than Erla
2. I believe that by the summer of 1944 Erla used the tall tails on their G-6's
3. The setup looks different from the photos I've seen from Erla taken in 1943.

Cheers! / Anders

Many thanks Anders! I was ill at ease with Erla too, but the camouflage patterns between Erla and WNF at that time are too close for me to tell...

Cheers
Marc

Cpt_Farrel 10th January 2013 23:30

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
About Bf109G-10 "Blaue 2" I believe 16./JG300 aircraft had indeed blue numerals but not with white outline. I believe the only staffel with a medium color numeral that has a white outline would be 11./JG300. If that's the case it's in other words an ex 11./JG300 a/c marked Green 2.

Marc-André Haldimann 10th January 2013 23:40

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
You sure of that, Anders? If yes, I will correct the LiF caption;-))

Cheers
Marc

Cpt_Farrel 11th January 2013 07:46

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
I would want to check through my references more but as I recall, neither I nor IV gruppe used any outlines at all on their numerals.

/Anders

Marc-André Haldimann 12th January 2013 12:41

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Great to have your feedback, Anders!

Cheers
Marc

the_ivan 12th January 2013 15:38

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc-André Haldimann (Post 160462)
Hi gang,

Another issue arises: where was this well known serie shot? My current guess is Erla Leipzig. Any confirmation would be much appreciated!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream

Cheers
Marc

My modus operandi: since Mtt Regensburg and Erla Leipzig camo styles are well defined and esily recognized, if doesn't match those, then must be from WNF. This leaves the option of main repair centres, but since these camo styles are not so well photo-documented... :D

Of interest in those photos are the ailerons, all visible have Flettner tabs. A number of machines received those in late 1943, but camo doesn't match the one applied in WNF at the time.

Marc-André Haldimann 25th January 2013 11:29

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thanks for your input, the_ivan!

Cheers
Marc

Marc-André Haldimann 25th January 2013 12:26

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Folks,

A fresh look at this well known picture, recently proposed for sale on Ebay (http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/fo...opic=14798&hl=, post 54)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57631641014196

allows to tie down the location of another Ebay photo found on 21 December 2012 (same thread, post no 35):
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7631641014196/
Source: http://www.ebay.de/i...G-/121041866289

It is actually the machine seen half hidden under camouflage nets in the background above the rear fuselage of Bf109 K-4 W.Nr. 334 265. Notice the same spinner and blades orientation and the two wooden beams to be seen hanging diagonally to the right of the plane's left wing. There is thus a high chance this is another Bf109K-4.

A closer look at the camouflage nets makes me also think this is not only a single hardstand camouflage but the front part of an underwood alley, possibly the final assembly area where Mtt-"Bürg" (shortening for the Flossenbürg KZ fuselage production line) fuselages and Altenhammer wings were mated. this could also tie down the location of this Mtt-"Bürg" fuselage row hidden on a forest track (Holzrückerweg) shown in two pictures published in:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625380126592
Source: Hideki Noro 2009, "LO+ST", p.103

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625380126592/
Source: Janowicz 2010, p.58

No certitude on my side, but just trying to tie down those loose ends of sometimes well known pictures not yet put in their proper context...

Cheers
Marc

Cpt_Farrel 25th January 2013 15:34

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Great connection between the background of 334265 and the new machine! The camoflage on 334265 is not the style used at Flossenbürg though, at least not if I've understood those theories right. I haven't looked into it as much as you though.

I still think it looks more like a single hardstand, the woods behind seems a little too dense even for wingless fuselages.

Cheers! / Anders

Marc-André Haldimann 25th January 2013 15:53

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thanks Anders!

As for W.Nr 334 265 camouflage, it is totally anachronistic! It's the classical Mtt camo for the W.Nr 330 000 - 331 000 production block. Franzee over on LEMB surmises this could be a give away that recycled damaged airframes were processed as well through the final assembly line at Vilseck- Weissenohe and then test-flown at Amberg-Schafhof.

One could event take a step further and think of a Werftreparatur shop in Amberg-Schafhof itself... Matter for thought?

Cheers
Marc

Cpt_Farrel 26th January 2013 13:56

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
It was you who reminded me a while ago that there were more aircraft in the 334 series with that high fuselage demarcation. Could they all have been repaired airframes? I think they look a little clean for that. You mentioned the possibility that the differences could've been stemming from various production lines, could that be a possibility still? Again, the different waldwerke and productionlines are not my strong side, yet! :)

/Anders

Marc-André Haldimann 27th January 2013 16:32

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi there Anders,

Good point there! I've just checked my files and here are the results, taken only from the certainly identified W.Nr's in the 334 000 batch:

A. Mtt-"Bürg" fuselages low visibility camouflage scheme:

1. Bf 109 K-4 W.Nr. 334 156, Erfurt, Summer 1945. Mol and Janda 2000, p. 56.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625380126592

2. Bf 109 K-4 W.Nr. 334 158 "Weisse 7", 13./JG 27, Oblt. Ernst-Georg Altnorhoff, Achmer, March 1945. Source: Internet.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625380126592

3. Bf 109 K-4 W.Nr. 334 161, Mtt employee Martin Gattinger, Cham-Michelsdorf, March 1945. Mol and Janda 2000, p . 19.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625380126592

4. Bf 109 K-4 WNr 334 175, III./JG 51, Junkertroylhof, April 1945. Collection Aders, published in Prien & Rodeike 1995, p. 174.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625380126592

5. Bf 109 K-4 W.Nr. 334 176 "Gelbe 1" II./JG 3, Uffz. Martin Deskau, Pasewalk, March 1945. Collection Deskau, published in Hitchcock 1979, cover and p. 3
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625380126592/

6. Bf 109 K-4 W.Nr. 334 186, III./JG27, April 1945, Bykev. Rajlich, Kokoska and Janda 2001, p. 144.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625380126592

7. Bf 109 K-4 W.Nr. 334 209, unit unknown, Köthen, Germany, 15 April 1945. Source: Stockum Collection via stories.windmillpro.com.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625380126592

8. Bf 109 K-4 WNr 334 210 "Weisse 4" 11./JG. 3, Fw Strebel, Pasewalk, March 1945. Collection Suhr, published in Prien & Rodeike 1995, p. 174.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625380126592


B. Recycled "old" fuselage or other Waldwerk (?) high camouflage demarcation line:

1. Bf 109 K-4 W.Nr. 334 183, Kastrup, May 1945. Poruba and Mol 2000, p. 38.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625380126592

2. Bf 109 K-4 W.Nr. 334 265, Amberg-Schafhof, May 1945. Poruba and Janda 1997, p. 74.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625380126592

As always so far, not enough evidence... Still, there are more fuselages then the odd W.Nr. 334 265 case as shows W.Nr. 334 183 found in Kastrup. There might be a third case, the dismantled fuselage found and photographed in Fürth, W. Nr. 33? 234. What are the figures? Of the ten documented W.Nr's, eight are finished in the low-visibility camouflage typical of Mtt-Flossenbürg fuselages, and only two in the old Mtt camouflage style prominent in the 330 000 - 331 000 batches.

Is this enough of a clue? I'm unsure, Anders. Let's extend our search:
- Is there any clue this oddity repeats itself in the other documents production batches?
Interestingly, this is not the case: seventeen of the eighteen 332 000 batch W.Nr. known airframes and all the four 335 000 batch W.Nr. known airframes show the low visibility low-camouflage pattern. None sports the "old" high demarcation line on their fuselage which, by the way, is not documented beyond W.Nr. 331 413 so far. As an aside note , one can notice an "intermediate" fuselage camouflage demarcation line showing up in both 331 000 (one instance: W.Nr. 331 461 ) and 332 000 (one instance: W.Nr. 332 429) batches: the division line runs along the middle line of the fuselage Balkenkreuz.

Given this "global" view, the "old" high demarcation line shown both by W.Nr. 334 183 and 334 265 is something of a peculiarity: those airframes remain isolated and, maybe together with W.Nr. 33? 234 do speak more for a recycling of older airframes then the making of new ones. Let's now wait for another 200 photographically documented airframes before we can nail down for sure this lead;-))

Cheers
Marc

D.B. Andrus 1st February 2013 01:51

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Here's a fairly rare shot of a 331XXX series K-4:

http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps1d1e4e1c.jpg

W.Nr. 331413, don't know location. Unit could be JG 4 or possibly dark blue banded JG 300?

Any more information re. this a/c would be appreciated.

Cheers,

D.B.

Marc-André Haldimann 1st February 2013 08:26

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi D.B.,

Thanks for your input. There are two pictures known for this plane which, according to Eric Mombeek is a 1./JG 4 plane.

Bf 109 K-4 W.Nr. 331 413 "Weisse 4", 1./JG 4, Spring 1945. Mombeek 2001, p. 184.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625380126592
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625380126592/

After checking out the possible location for this wreck on Michael Holm's great site, it might have been left behind in Darmstadt, where I./JG 4 was based until 22 January 1945, and found by a US unit in March when the city was overrun.

Cheers
Marc

D.B. Andrus 1st February 2013 20:52

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc-André Haldimann (Post 161473)
Hi D.B.,

Thanks for your input. There are two pictures known for this plane which, according to Eric Mombeek is a 1./JG 4 plane.

Bf 109 K-4 W.Nr. 331 413 "Weisse 4", 1./JG 4, Spring 1945. Mombeek 2001, p. 184.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625380126592
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625380126592/

After checking out the possible location for this wreck on Michael Holm's great site, it might have been left behind in Darmstadt, where I./JG 4 was based until 22 January 1945, and found by a US unit in March when the city was overrun.

Cheers
Marc

Thank you very much, Marc.

D.B.

Marc-André Haldimann 2nd February 2013 09:32

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
You're welcome, D.B. Alas, as for too many late war planes, no hint at any operational history...

Cheers
Marc

magyarmesszer 3rd February 2013 16:29

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Have a look at my site! You will find several interesting photos.
http://indafoto.hu/magyarmesszer/collections

I need information about this Bf 109. It was a hungarian built G14 captured by US troops. Where and where were these photos taken?
http://indafoto.hu/magyarmesszer/ima...46ad62c/350415
http://indafoto.hu/magyarmesszer/ima...3ff53e9/350415

Marc-André Haldimann 3rd February 2013 20:30

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Szia Magyarmesszer!

Gyönyörü képek, gratùlalòk és szoksor köszönöm! Az édes anyam magyar;-))

Thanks very much for your great link; you have indeed many new to me pictures.

As for your question, according to the published W.Nr. lists by Lynn Rittger (2007), all 101 Vadaszezred planes were found either in Raffelding, Zeltweg or Neubieberg. Photographic evidence also shows some planes found their way in Kirchdorf-Micheldorf, Austria:

Bf 109 G-14 W.Nr. 511 ... (?) "Fehér 5", 101 Vadaszezred, Kirchdorf - Micheldorf, April 24, 1945. Source: Collection John W. Oberstar, 11th Armored Division via thefirearmsforum.com.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625539907434
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625539907434/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625539907434/

Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 612 770 "Fehér 4", 101 Vadaszezred, Kirchdorf - Micheldorf, April 24, 1945. Source: Collection John W. Oberstar, 11th Armored Division via thefirearmsforum.com.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625218079461
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625218079461/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625218079461/

Hope this helps a bit...

Cheers
Marc

magyarmesszer 4th February 2013 11:49

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Köszönöm! I found several interesting photos.

Maybe the same aircraft:
http://indafoto.hu/magyarmesszer/ima...198a9d1/114563
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...ream/lightbox/

magyarmesszer 4th February 2013 11:50

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...ream/lightbox/
This photo was taken in Hungary! The plane in the foreground is a Re2000 Héja

Marc-André Haldimann 4th February 2013 12:15

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by magyarmesszer (Post 161674)
Köszönöm! I found several interesting photos.

Maybe the same aircraft:
http://indafoto.hu/magyarmesszer/ima...198a9d1/114563
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...ream/lightbox/

It really looks like. The only odd issue are the Russians posing in front of that machine... Giessen is not on the Elbe, isn't it?
(Correction: nothing is odd: those are US uniforms...my mistake!).

Cheers
Marc

Marc-André Haldimann 4th February 2013 12:18

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by magyarmesszer (Post 161675)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...ream/lightbox/
This photo was taken in Hungary! The plane in the foreground is a Re2000 Héja

Great! Excellent news! I will correct it at once.

By the way, do you have more informations for this quite extraordinary series of color pics showing the Hungarian G-6's? I surmise they were shot in Veszprém at about the time where W.Nr. 760 381 was also photographed. Any info will be much appreciated.

Cheers
Marc

magyarmesszer 24th February 2013 20:53

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Sorry, I don't know more about these photos.
But I have a new photo of a german 109F.
http://indafoto.hu/magyarmesszer/ima...-4aaa3cbb/user

Marc-André Haldimann 25th February 2013 08:42

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Bf 109 F-4 "Weisse 10", 1./JG 52.

Cheers
Marc

ouidjat 25th February 2013 10:40

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
No: 4./JG 52 (Emblem of little cat) and I bet it's a Bf 109 F-2. Not that much F-4s during that period, if none.

Cheers, Franck.

Marc-André Haldimann 25th February 2013 10:42

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Ok Franck, thanks!

Cheers
Marc

magyarmesszer 2nd March 2013 20:31

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
I got some interesting photos, have a look!
http://indafoto.hu/magyarmesszer

Marc-André Haldimann 4th March 2013 12:42

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
A great selection of Hungarian Ar 96's, Fw 58's and Ju 86's.

Köszönöm!
MA

ChrisS 4th March 2013 21:00

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
magyarmesszer

Great collection of photos and the parts photos' are very helpful.

Regards

Chris

Marc-André Haldimann 10th March 2013 21:14

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
And here my tentative ID for this Bf 109 G, just found by Peter over on LEMB:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream
Bf 109 G-8 W.Nr. 20x xxx "Schwarze 16", 2./NAG ?, location unknown, Germany, Autumn 1944. Source: Ebay auction via LEMB Forum.

Any precisions about unit and location?
Thanks in advance
Marc

Pilot 10th March 2013 21:31

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Is this cropped image?

Marc-André Haldimann 10th March 2013 21:52

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Yes Srecko; the full image does only show the sky above.... It can be seen on LEMB at this thread, post 65:
http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/fo...opic=14798&hl=

Cheers
Marc

Marc-André Haldimann 10th March 2013 22:42

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
As for the location, it was...on the Ebay auction itself: Zichenau - Ciechanów, Eastern Prussia, 1944:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Me-109-Jagd-F...ht_1024wt_1378

Now remains the BIG question of the unit...

Cheers
Marc

Nick Beale 10th March 2013 23:08

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Excuse my ignorance but how did you conclude that it's a G-8. Is there a feature I should have spotted?

Marc-André Haldimann 10th March 2013 23:42

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hello Nick,

The camouflage is my only lead; the very dense overspraying of the rear fuselage behind the Balkenkreuz is a feature always noted on all WNF produced G-8's. Now look to the Hakenkreuz: you have the usual RLM 76 only surrounding; the W.Nr. itself, painted in thin big numerals around and under the over-sprayed Hakenkreuz cannot be seen due to the tail being slightly out of focus.

Agreed, the definitive proof of this machine being a G-8 is missing; still, comparing among all the G-8's on my Flickr pages, one can see IMHO the commonness of their WNF specifically applied camouflage.

Cheers
Marc

John Beaman 11th March 2013 17:33

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Beale (Post 163494)
Excuse my ignorance but how did you conclude that it's a G-8. Is there a feature I should have spotted?

If Marc is correct about the start of the WNr as 20xxxxx, then it is a G-8.

Nick Beale 11th March 2013 18:06

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by John Beaman (Post 163532)
If Marc is correct about the start of the WNr as 20xxxxx, then it is a G-8.

That much I do know (although many such were still described as G-6 in German signals) but I couldn't make out a Werk Nummer on the photo and without that or the camera windows I was stuck for clues. The MG 131s seem to be present; had they not been there, it would have been a good pointer to a G-8, many of which had their armament reduced to a single MG 151/20 (e.g. in service with 4. and 5.(F)/123).

Marc-André Haldimann 11th March 2013 22:01

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
John,

I wish I could be correct... But Nick has it right: nothing to be seen in the slightly out of focus tailplane... So no definitive clue.

My point was really camouflage orientated as the recurring heavy blotching of the rear fuselage and the RLM 76 undersurface around the Hakenkreuz are a common feature for all W.Nr. identified Bf 109 G-8's:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625536800422 W.Nr. 200 041
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625536800422 W.Nr. 200 265
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625536800422 W.Nr. 200 2xx

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625536800422
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625536800422W.Nr. 201 143

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625536800422 W.Nr. 201 765
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625536800422 W.Nr. 202 113

This said, no way to be 100% sure... And thanks, Nick, for the lead about the absence/presence of MG 131's. I wasn't aware of that.

Cheers
Marc


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