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-   -   Late war Bf 109 pictures source (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=27108)

Oberst 4th October 2011 20:38

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Your welcome. Whats your take on the colours??

Pilot 4th October 2011 21:28

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Various options, mostly based on RLM 75 and 82 but in few cases wings are RLM76 on top with RLM 75 patches. There is notable presence machines with patches schemes, there is dark variants with possibly two late greens and other version where all machine is in pale finish with patches in similar style but in medium color, possibly RLM75.

Tricky subject, no definite answer and all opinion and suggestions are good to hear.

Rasmussen 4th October 2011 22:04

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cpt_Farrel (Post 135217)
Rasmussen posted while I wrote so additionally, what's your take on the colors if not 83? What about the more traditionally camoflaged G-10's from Erla, do you believe them to have been 74/75 up to the end?

I know the colour stock of Erla and there wasn't an drop RLM 83.

Regards
Rasmussen

veltro 4th October 2011 23:22

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rasmussen (Post 135238)
I know the colour stock of Erla and there wasn't an drop RLM 83.

Nice to know... now. :rolleyes:

Guess that all the so far theorized 75/83 schemes should now be read as "75/82"...

Oberst 4th October 2011 23:43

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
veltro,

what your opinion on these colours? seemingly correct? or should they be RLM 75/82?

http://www.forcedlandingcollection.s...136-Bf109.html

Marc-André Haldimann 5th October 2011 00:07

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rasmussen (Post 135216)
Nearly 30 years of research exclusivly on Erla ... your correct W.Nr. for this a/c was 151 965. You find an correct colour profile in the Lorant/ Goyat - book, volume 2, page 194 ... and ... none of the Erla a/c's had an "all - in - all" RLM 83 - camouflage because none of the Erla a/c's had RLM 83 on fuselage (if it was delivered direct by factory and not repainted somewhere).

Best regards
Rasmussen

Rasmussen,

Many many thanks for bringing in the correct W.Nr. of "Gelbe 5"! It is much appreciated. I would be glad to read what standard dark color was applied at factory level by Erla; and above all, I'm looking forward to see all your research published!

Thanks again
Marc

veltro 5th October 2011 00:21

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberst (Post 135242)
veltro,

what your opinion on these colours? seemingly correct? or should they be RLM 75/82?

http://www.forcedlandingcollection.s...136-Bf109.html

74/75 could certainly be a viable option, especially now that we know what Rasmussen has revealed.

Also "75/82" couldn't be ruled out, unless of course we will be at last able to know for sure what hue RLM 82 really was (or should I say what range of hues...?)

What we are sure of is that, IMHO, we can only offer more or less educated guesses, unless (or "if") a crystal clear colour slide could come to the rescue and enlighten us about one of those Erla machines.

Marc-André Haldimann 5th October 2011 00:30

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by veltro (Post 135245)
74/75 could certainly be a viable option, especially now that we know what Rasmussen has revealed.

Also "75/82" couldn't be ruled out, unless of course we will be at last able to know for sure what hue RLM 82 really was (or should I say what range of hues...?)

What we are sure of is that, IMHO, we can only offer more or less educated guesses, unless (or "if") a crystal clear colour slide could come to the rescue and enlighten us about one of those Erla machines.

Veltro,

Thanks for giving us an insight in this 74/75 possibility. Issue is I do not see any contrasted and segmented pattern in those machines published by Hideki Noro. The only one on which there is obviously one is the Grafenwöhr machine...

Am I missing something here?

Cheers
Marc

Marc-André Haldimann 5th October 2011 00:35

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pilot (Post 135233)
Various options, mostly based on RLM 75 and 82 but in few cases wings are RLM76 on top with RLM 75 patches. There is notable presence machines with patches schemes, there is dark variants with possibly two late greens and other version where all machine is in pale finish with patches in similar style but in medium color, possibly RLM75.

Tricky subject, no definite answer and all opinion and suggestions are good to hear.

OK Srecko and Veltro,

75/82 noted... But I'm still unable to see any contrast in the Hideki Noro pics... Do you actually see them?

Cheers
Marc

Oberst 5th October 2011 00:36

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Veltro,
Many thanks. Would the same be applied to the Mtt-Reg built machines as the one in the link is?

Marc,
page 48 in JaPo - Bf 109 of JG52 in Deutsch Brod shows your aircraft in question and to me it clearly shows two different colours with a demarctation seperating them.

Marc-André Haldimann 5th October 2011 00:38

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Schönen Dank Oberst!

Too late to fish it out again tonight; will check it tomorrow... with fresh eyes! One thing I'm sure though: the b/w and color profiles made in 2004 do show only one color...

Cheers
Marc

veltro 5th October 2011 01:49

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Just one word of precisation: my reply was done with reference to the Bf 109G-10 landed in Sweden linked by Oberst and, more generally, to the Erla G-10s in apparent "normal" camouflage.

I actually have a sort of "agnostic" position concerning the all-dark G-10s of the 150.xxx batch. AFAIK, they could be in whatever combination of "dark" colors (excluding RLM 83 of course, and certainly not 74/75!) possible, but even then, no certainty is at hand.

Oberst 5th October 2011 02:24

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thanks for the clarification Ferdinando. In regards to the dark colours G-10s of the 150.xxx batch, any chance they were Italian colours?

Pilot 5th October 2011 06:39

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Single color could be war rush but also.... do you remember a decades repeated statements of single coat RLM70 machines until was realized that this was caused by the nature of film. Maybe situation here. RLM81 and 82 are in most cases so dark so combination of this two could cause problem. In other hands we have some Fw190 with single top color on the fuselage top.

As I know RLM74 was discarded for use in 1944 and replaced by camouflage pattern 75/82. Is there any proof for RLM83 color? Bitter problem is the fact that some preserved pieces show wide variations in green colors.

Protection color could be also problem as well there was grey green (by mistake long time called RLM84) and very dark color, one researcher from Czechs Republic state it is RLM66 and it is possible as well there is several images of the rudder of late production Bf109 with very dark horizontal rudder and one color image show very dark color, very possible RLM66. So this colors could be some of external colors. RLM66 is used for cockpit frames and in some cases I have seen that the same or almost the same hue of color was extending on rest of airframe.

No need to say what we all know- not possible to determine from black and white image what color is on it.

veltro 5th October 2011 08:18

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberst (Post 135258)
Thanks for the clarification Ferdinando. In regards to the dark colours G-10s of the 150.xxx batch, any chance they were Italian colours?

To put it simply, no.

Marc-André Haldimann 5th October 2011 09:16

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thanks Ferdinando for your swift answer.

Srecko, I remember well this overall RLM 70 camouflage theory; I can follow you on that point.

For the sake of completeness here are the two usable pics of Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 152 xxx "Gelbe 11" found at Deutsch Brod:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625208099917/

Though I can see a painted over "7" showing under the "Gelbe 11", I cannot make out any contrast in the dark tonality of its seemingly monochrome camouflage... Note the shiny aspect of the paint on the surviving skins.

IMHO, W.Nr. 152 3x3 is emblematic for the camouflage of those machines: one overall RLM XX color camouflage with unpainted wings undersurfaces. Both are obvious for this machine, but also on "Gelbe 11"...

Rasmussen, any insight into which RLM color ERLA camouflaged its G-10 batches?

Thanks in advance
Marc

Pilot 5th October 2011 09:25

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Interesting image Marc. It s strange what the service use can do with single top coat paintwork, bleaching from sun, wash from hand prints, fuels and oil, heat from engine... and so on, can make impressions of multi color camouflage. So even if we have single coat coat it could look as the more coat is on.

It is nice to continue in this way, maybe some findings could be find. I will search my hard drive, I think that I have download image of late war Bf109 with single top coat (but due to mess in files I can not promise anything).

Cheers :)

Marc-André Haldimann 5th October 2011 09:29

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
I have the same issue, Srecko!

Am particularly looking for the b/w picture of the Grafenwöhr G-10... No chance so far.

Any of you folks do have it to share with us again?

Thanks
Marc

Pilot 5th October 2011 10:17

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Marc- contact me on email if this is not problem please :)

veltro 5th October 2011 11:30

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc-André Haldimann (Post 135270)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625208099917/

Though I can see a painted over "7" showing under the "Gelbe 11", I cannot make out any contrast in the dark tonality of its seemingly monochrome camouflage... Note the shiny aspect of the paint on the surviving skins.

FWIW, it looks as if there is a diagonal hue demarcation between the tail and the fuselage Balkenkreuz...

Micke D 5th October 2011 11:40

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
We now know that ERLA didn't have any RLM 83, usually described as Dark green.
Is it possible to say what shades of dark paint ERLA had, when the G-10 W.Nr. 150xxx was built?
This seems a lot easier than debating and guessing about what other paints they could have used to paint them with.

Marc-André Haldimann 5th October 2011 11:41

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Ah Ferdinando,

I see it too; my thoughts were about a bending on the fuselage, but after checking it out, I don't see any actual bend in the airframe. So you might be right;-))

Marc

Marc-André Haldimann 5th October 2011 11:42

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hej Micke,

Correct. I do hope Rasmussen or Charles Bavarois will shed some light on this issue...

Cheers
Marc

veltro 5th October 2011 15:44

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
They will probably put their knowledge on paper in a not too far future, maybe teamed with an excellent author... Let's wait and see with a hint of patience.

Oberst 5th October 2011 15:59

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pilot (Post 135266)
As I know RLM74 was discarded for use in 1944 and replaced by camouflage pattern 75/82.

Was this on a document? When in 1944 was it ordered to drop RLM 74? Also as this was mid 1944 or so, there were probably shortages in paint, I would assume they would use RLM 74 until it was all used up, no?

Pilot 5th October 2011 16:30

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Oberst, just give me some time, this was info I get from one friend.... to locate info and provide here.

Marc-André Haldimann 5th October 2011 16:54

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by veltro (Post 135292)
They will probably put their knowledge on paper in a not too far future, maybe teamed with an excellent author... Let's wait and see with a hint of patience.

Speriamo! Hoping for...

Grazie
MA

Oberst 5th October 2011 19:05

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pilot (Post 135295)
Oberst, just give me some time, this was info I get from one friend.... to locate info and provide here.

I have couple books I can check.. If I find any relevant info I'll post it here too. thanks!

Pilot 5th October 2011 19:16

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
I know there is info about http://www.aero-journal.com/hors-serie.php

Title is Les camouflages de la Luftwaffe.

Oberst 5th October 2011 19:18

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Found this dated 15.8.1944:

From-

Supreme Command of the Luftwaffe
Head of Technical Aviation Equipment
E 10 No.239/44 (IV E) Ref. 70 K 10

To-

Berlin W8, 15 August 1944
Leipziger Strase 7
Tel.: 218011
Ext.: 4535

In part-

" As a result of this new regulation the following RLM shades are in future to be discontinued: 65, 70, 71 and 74. Shade 70 continues to be specified solely for propellers. "

Pilot 5th October 2011 19:21

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Some info about color changes:

http://www.letletlet-warplanes.com/f...2766/#msg22766

Oberst 5th October 2011 21:16

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
2 Attachment(s)
heres the one I usually follow, from Claes Sundin (RLM chips, I highly recommend buying all his books) the colour foto of the G-10 tail is very interesting also:

veltro 5th October 2011 21:59

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
I'm glad that you posted that fantastic colour slide of the tail of an Erla G-10 because that - to me - was the proof that the colour combination 75/83 (or 82) was used.

Beware however that the rudder colors does not mean nothing Erla-wise, because the rudder (and often also the whole fixed vertical part of the tail) were produced and painted directly as sub-assembled parts by external firms, which could well have RLM 83 available instead...

Such rudder however proves clearly (IMHO) that the couple of gray-green colors were used before or together with the 81/82 (or 83) pair as visible on other rudders.

What is fundamental is that Rasmussen could enlight us on what RLM colors (useable as camouflage ones) were available at Erla, because to be able to say what wasn't there, you should clearly know what was there... ;)

Marc-André Haldimann 5th October 2011 22:20

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi there Oberst and Veltro,

Just as a follow up, W.Nr. 491 300 was photographed 14 April 1945 at Gardelegen. This is a detail of pic published in LiF 2, p. 34. It was taken whilst US 3d Army troops were battling Luftwaffe personnel entrenched in the forest on the opposite side of the airport.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625208099917

Cheers
Marc

Oberst 5th October 2011 22:48

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
1 Attachment(s)
The colour above the "43" always intruiged me. Its almost an aqua-marine colour, I've seen it used in several Claes Sundin profiles including Me109G-10 W.Nr.130 297. Seems to be a variation of RLM 76. Would this be correct? Included is a digitaly enhanced copy of the colour slide.

ouidjat 6th October 2011 15:36

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cpt_Farrel (Post 135133)
For comparison I did another profile for my blog based on a photo found at Neil Pages blog a long time ago. The photo depicts the right hand side of an Erla built G-10 and shows what could be a camoflagepattern that would fit nicely with the one seen on the left hand side of the "Grafenwöhr G-10".

Now I'll quit hi-jacking this thread, sorry... Got carried away. :)

http://www.cptfarrels.com/blog/Bf109...0JG11_1024.jpg

Hello,

Hello,

A simple question (To all, not only Anders): So on Erla build G-10s there was an Half-moon link between fuselage and cowling on right side???

Thanks for your help.

Cheers, Franck.

Pilot 6th October 2011 15:47

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

So on Erla build G-10s there was an Half-moon link between fuselage and cowling on right side???
Yes And flat line connection on port side. There is many images which confirm this... Also there is other differences, like small blister on the top wings (not extended one as on others G-10), no blisters at the nose side...

Oberst 6th October 2011 22:09

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
As far as I know, there was only the Type 100 & 110 cowls, and the Ultra rare cowl which was used on some G-5/6 AS's.

ChristianK 6th October 2011 23:23

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Sorry for another Off Topic, but can someone point me to the reference photo for the Bf 109 in post #76 please? I just cannot find it anywhere..

Also, I cannot access a single of your links, Marc. Have you had any copyright complaints in the meantime?

Regards,
Christian

Marc-André Haldimann 6th October 2011 23:47

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hallo Christian,

Sorry for your first request: I don't know the picture source for "Schwarze 17"... Srecko might provide this information.

As for accessing the pics, people from Germany obviously do have an issue: you're the third to ask me about this access problem. On my side, all pics are free to view. Falcon managed to access at last my photo stream. He managed it by creating a new Flickr ID. Hopefully, it works for you too...

And so far, no complaints received. In the contrary, some very encouraging help for improving this database. Looking forward to have yours too;-))

Cheers
Marc


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