Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces
 

Hi Guys

There were twenty-four aces who claimed more than fifty confirmed victories, but were never awarded the Ritterkreuz, and are therefore somewhat overlooked, and some are obscure, can anybody please help with dates of birth/death, some I know, some I know only to have survived the war. Grateful for any assistance....

Karl Fuchs 65 confirmed(one West) ?-10th October 1943.
Helmut Mischke 62+ confirmed ?-survived.
Karlheinz Meltzer 62 confirmed 23rd February 1922-14th August 1943.
Hans Ellendt 62 confirmed ?-survived.
Heinrich Dittlmann 61 confirmed 1921-23rd February 1944.
Gerhard Beutin 60 confirmed ?-25th June 1943.
Helmut Haberda 59 confirmed 3rd February 1922-8th May 1943.
Karl munz 59 confirmed(five West, one viermot) 29th April 1915-3rd December 1992.
Gabriel Tautscher 58 confirmed 1919-12th January 1944.
Adolf Nehrig c.58 confirmed ?-survived.
Manfred Eberwein c.56 confirmed(1 viermot) ?-survived.
Helmut Holtz 56 confirmed 1919-18th April 1944.
Wilhelm Hauswith 56 confirmed ?-5th July 1943.
Horst Forbrig 56 confirmed(1 West) 1921-12th June 1944.
Hans Reiff 55 confirmed ?-2nd December 1944.
Herbert Bareuther c.55 confirmed 29th July 1914-30th April 1945.
Kurt Olsen 54 confirmed ?-survived.
Adalbert Sommer 54 confirmed(3 West, 1 viermot) 3rd December 1914-14th March 1944.
Ernst-Dietrich Grumme 54 confirmed(7 West, 5 viermots) 29th July 1922-14th July 1944.
Karl Friedrich Schumacher 53 confirmed 7th October 1920-31st May 1944.
Walter Jahnke 53 confirmed 1914-survived.
Andreas Sterl 52 confirmed ?-1998.
Heinrich Wefers 51 confirmed 14th April 1919-18th May 1943.
August Dilling 51 confirmed(4 West, 1 viermot) ?-14th June 1944.

I think that Hans Ellendt died in the late 1990's or early 2000's.

Thanks in advance.

Kind Regards

Johannes

P.S if anybody wants the biographies and complete lists of any of the above please let me know.

Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces
 

Hans Ellendt died 25 May 2007.

Matti

Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces
 

Hello Johannes

I have the following information for several of these aces. Note that Bareuther was awarded the Ritterkreuz on 2 May 1945 according to Obermaier. Any comments or corrections will be greatly appreciated and I hope this helps.

Herbert Bareuther was born on 29 July 1914 at Asch.
Gerhard Beutin was born on 5 October 1919 at Sassnitz.
Heinrich Dittlmann was born on 9 January 1921 at Waldkirchen.
Horst Forbrig was born on 21 July 1921 at Rotewisch.
Helmut Holtz was born on 26 March 1919 at Genthin.
Ernst-Dietrich Grumme was born on 29 July 1922 at Halle.
Karl Munz was born on 29 April 1915 at Gottwollshausen.
Hans Reiff was born on 10 February 1922 at Geroldsgrün.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces
 

Hallo Leo and Matti

Many thanks, excellent work, and much appreciated.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces
 

How about Kurt Ratzlaff, 68 victories, lost in September 1942 over Eastern front?

Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces
 

As regards to Helmut Holtz this is definitely not April 18, 1944. He was only captured on that day.

Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces
 

KArl Munz was also awarded the RK, see Obermaier, though it does say "RK eingereicht, möglicherweise in den letzen Kriegstagen noch ausgesprochen"

Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces
 

As far as I know there are four more pilots with 50+ vics without having received the RK. These are Karl-Heinz Cordes of JG 54 with 62 vics, Josef "Sepp" Quarda also of JG54 with 52 vics, Karl Brill of JG54 and later of JG7 with 52 vics as well, and I have also a pilot named Wilhelm Kukken of JG51 and JGr OSt who was KIA on April 2, 1944 and had 51 victories.
Any more info about them?

Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces
 

Hi Guys

Thanks for getting back to me, and your questions.......questioning in my opinion helps us to get it right.

Wilhelm Kuken ?-4th April 1944 had 45 in the East.
Kurt Ratzlaff ?-? had 46 in the East until his capture.
Karl Brill 20th March 1920-19th January 1994 had 33(1West) until end of 1944, so possibly more, but unlikely as many as 50 as he was transfered away from the Eastern front!
Karlheinz Cordes 24th April 1920-survived had 43(2 viermots) until the end of 1944, so possibly, actually probably more!!
Josef Quarda(sorry, Id missing him) 19th February 1923 had 52 in the East until the end of 1944, and possibly/likely more in 1945 until his death on 5th March 1945.

With Helmut Holtz I only have him recorded as missing, please could you forward your details and source.

If you can expalin to me how to get my list of 2550 aces and a total of 7805 claimers onto 12oclockhigh I'd do it so everybody could scrutise and question it, it would also be a good help reference I'm sure.

Kind Regards

Johannes

P.S Is there any interest in me doing a 40-49 non Ritterkreuz list do you think?

Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces
 

I would like to see a 40-49 non RK list.
As you said questioning is helping us getting it right.

Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces
 

Holtz landed on the muddy field to get his wingman, who was damaged by AA fire and crash landed nearby. He failed to take off because of the mud. Both were captured. Source, his interrogation protocole in TsAMO.

Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces
 

Johannes,

Andreas Sterl - May 23rd, 1919 (Schönkirch/Bavaria, Germany) - November 28th, 1997 (Mitterteich/Bavaria, Germany)

Regards,

Craig..

Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces
 

Hello Johannes

Not much but I can add that Karl-Heinz Cordes was born on 24 April 1920 at Greven and that Josef Quarda was born on 19 February 1923 at Wien. I hope this helps and I agree that any additional information on these successful yet little known aces would be great.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces
 

Hi Johannes.

I think the best way is to upload your archived files on a free file hosting (such as mediafire.com, filefactory.com... hundreds of them) and then provide the link in appropriate thread, so everyone could download these archives.

It would be a great pleasure if you share your fantastic materials with 12oclockhigh community :)

Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces
 

Hi

I'll get to work on it. I'll mention DKiG if awarded, trouble is that recording dates for this award end Autumn 1944, after that it's largely speculation!

Regards

Johannes

Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces
 

Hi Guys

Firstly thanks to Craig, Nikita and Leo. All those below are known to have received the DKiG with the exception of Hannig, Tangermann, Koller and Arnold, though there is always the post recording of DKiG awards, so relying on personnal accounts, or photographic evidence road to follow here. Josef Quarde also appears not to have been awarded the DKiG, if so a record for him.
Clearly below Sinner should have been given the Ritterkreuz given his were in the West, his leadership qualities, and that he was an honest claimer!

Rudolf Sinner 40(37 West, 3viermots) 31st December 1915-survived(still living I believe)
Gerhard Schneider 41 in the East 1920-5th January 1944
Günther Schwarz 41 in the East 1922-24th October 1943
Richard Quante 41 in the East 1912-14th August 1942
Rudolf Saborowski 41(6 West) ?-8th July 1942
Hans Boos 42 in the East 1919-21st April 1943
Hans-Günther Reinhardt 42(1 viermot) 18th March 1918-5th March 1989
Karl Otto Decker 42(2 West) 11th November 1915-27th August 1942
Karl-Heinrich Plücker 42 in the East 9th May 1921-10th May 1944
Norbert Hannig 42(1West) 12th September 1923-survived(still living)
Sigurd Haala 42 in the East 28th October 1919-16th June 1997
Wilhelm Theimann 42 in the East 1920-29th July 1943
Karlheinz Cordes 43+(2 viermots) 24th April 1920-survived
Alfred Dettke 44 in the East 10th March 1921-5th January 1943
Hans Frese 44(3West) ?-8th March 1944
Lothar Mai 44 in the East 1918-27th August 1943
Paul-August Stolte 44(8West, 4 viermots) 11th October 1916-10th October 1943.
Xaver Müller 44 in the East 29th November 1916-27th August 1943
Alfred Surau 45(4 viermots) 27th April 1916-14th October 1943
Georg Seidel 45 in the East 1916-6th March 1943
Kurt Tangermann 45 in the East 1921-survived(Rudorffer's Eastern front Wingman).
Wilhelm Küken 45 in the East ?-4th April 1944
Franz Daspelgruber 46(1 viermot) ?-16th July 1943
Kurt Ratzlaff 46 in the East ?-?
Otto Vinzent 46(1 West) 1915-4th January 1944
Günther Toll 47+(8 West, 1 viermot) ?-survived
Heinz Arnold 48(7 West, 5 viermots) 12th February 1919-17th April 1945.
Heribert Koller 48 in the East 10th December 1920-survived(still living).
Fritz Stendel 48+(7 West) 31st January 1914-22nd April 1996

Please remember be critical, and please,please do forward any additional information.

Kind Regards

Johannes

P.S I should imagine that Cordes's logbook would make interesting reading!

Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces
 

My contribution
I have also these pilots who meet the above criteria (40-49 vics and DK award ) :
August Muller, 49 vics, JG51
Gunther Toll , 49 vics, JG52
Heinz Fohl, 45 vics, JG52
Alfred Mikcsh, 43 vics, JG3, JG1.
Erhard Niese, 43 vics, JG77 and JG4
Josef Gabl, 42 vics, JG51,
Gerhard Reinhold , 41 vics JG5, JG7
Peter Bremer , 40 vics, JG54,
Rudolph Busch, 40 vics, JG51,
Walter Heitkamp, 40 vics, JG52
Bernhard Hessel 40 vics, JG51,
Berhard Lausch, 40 vics, JG 51,
Josef Schutte ,40 vics, JG3,
George Seckel, 40 vics, JG77, JG4,
Herman Segatz, 40 vics, JG26,JG5,JG51,JG1,
Erwin Stratznicky,40 vics, JG77, JG3 .

Furthermore there is a pilot named George Hahnlein of JG 54 with 40 vics but without DK.
Any more info about the above ?

Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces
 

Hallo Andreas

Thankyou for your queries, answers are as follows:-

August Müller 34+ in the East DKiG(may have had more in 1945)
Heinz Föhl 1(just one) in the East!
Alfred Miksch 38(2 West, 1 viermot) DKiG
Erhard Niese 21(15 West, 6 viermots)
Josef Gabl 36+ in the East DKiG(is likely to have more in 1945, as very active at this time)
Gerhard Reinhold 36(2 viermots) DKiG
Peter Bremer 37 in the East DKiG
Rudolph Busch 26+(4 West) DKiG(may have made more claims in 1945)
Walter Heitkamp 28 in the East DKiG
Berhard Hessel 38 in the East
Berhard Lausch 36(5 West) DKiG
Josef Schütte 27 in the East DKiG
Georg Seckel 34(6 West, 2 viermots) DKiG
Hermann Segatz 32(12 West, 4 viermots) DKiG
Erwin Stratznicky 30(2 West)
Georg Hahnlein 18 in the East

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces
 

Decker was also only captured on August 27, 1942. Date of death is still missing.

Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces
 

Thank you for the immediate answer.
How one can explain the discrepancy in the numbers of kills?
Is it overclaiming, bottleneck in the confirmation procedures during the war, or is it really new data unearthed that changed established situations?

Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces
 

Hi Andreas

Question about descrepancies is complex in intself. I am sure there were a few pilots either dis-honest or exagerating post-war. Most were not surviving the war, so where do we get there totals from? Some were still active at the wars end, and thus missing the micro films, some had unconfirmed in there totals(they counted claims, sometimes it would be eighteen months before being refused/or confirmed. Very often once a figure is published in a book it becomes "Cast in Stone"!

Forgot to mention about Toll.....he was very active at the wars end, and some of his 1945 claims appear in the KBT document, the last states his forty-seventh kill.

Regards

Johannes

Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces
 

Hi guys

Very interesting thread and I am glad that I have been able to be of some help. I can add that Heribert Koller was at some point awarded the Deutsches Kreuz in Gold as I have a photograph of him wearing that decoration. The date of the award unfortunately is not known to me, though. As Johannes notes he was born on 10 December 1920 at Fichtelberg. I can also add that Hans Boos was born on 12 December 1919 at Oberbruch and Richard Quante was born on 14 January 1912 at Saargemünd.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces
 

Thanks Leo.

Do you want to go over 30-39 non Ritterkreuz carriers?

Kind Regards

Johannes

P.S Koller is still living, is anybody in a position to ask him about when he was awarded the DKiG?
Of interst is that I could find only forty-seven of the forty-eight claims he had listed until the end of 1944(one appartently was never confirmed), and have accepted his 1945 claim as he has a full date! His DKiG was well earned.

I was once asked by a author to lookover a nightfigter pilots list, and try to match them against the micro films, the pilot stated that he thought one was unconfirmed, and sure enough all were recorded on the micro films eccept one!

Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces
 

Karl Fuchs born 4 March 1917 at Wien
Gabriel Tautscher born 5 May 1919 at Umberg
Wilhelm Hauswirth born 31 January 1918 at Weingarten
August Dilling born 6 April 1917 at Gieswied
Rudolf Saborowski born 31 December 1916 at Berlin
Hans Frese born 2 May 1921 at Uetersen
Lothar Mai born 20 August 1918 at Lublinitz
Kurt Tangermann born 30 May 1921

Hope this helps
Gordon

p.s. check you pm

Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces
 

Here's what I have so far - no new names I think, but maybe a few more details.

Meltzer, Karl-Heinz, Fw., 74, JG 52, DKiG, MIA on 14-Aug-43., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Fast, JG 52, IV p.104
Fuchs, Karl, Ofw., 67, JG 54, DKiG, MIA on 10-Oct-43., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Scutts, JG 54
Ellendt, Hans, Ltn., 64, JG 52, DKiG, WIA on 28-Dec-43 due to Luftkampf. (inc. 2 tanks!), O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Barbas, II./JG 52; Fast, JG 52, IV, p.119
Cordes, Karl-Heinz, Ltn., 62, JG 54, DKiG, , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Scutts, JG 54
Beutin, Gerhard, Ofw., 61, JG 54, JGr.West, DKiG, KIFA 25-Jun-43., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Scutts, JG 54
Jahnke, Walter, Ltn., 58~, JG 52, JG 11, JG 7, DKiG, (49 doc. with JG 52), O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Barbas, I./JG 52; Prien/Rodeike, JG 1 & 11, III; Foreman/Harvey, 262 Combat Diary; Boehme, JG 7
Nehring, Adolf, Ltn., 58, JG 52, DKiG, (56 doc.), O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Barbas, I./JG 52; Fast, JG 52, IV, p.118
Forbrig, Horst, Ltn., 58, JG 54, DKiG, MIA on 12-Jun-44., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Scutts, JG 54
Haberda, Helmut, Ltn., 58, JG 52, DKiG, KIA on 8-May-43 by Flak., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Barbas, II./JG 52; Fast, JG 52, IV, p.92
Dittlmann, Heinrich, Ofw., 57, JG 51, DKiG, KIA on 23-Feb-44., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Aders/Held, JG 51
Schumacher, Karl, Fw., 56, JG 52, DKiG, KIA on 31-May-44 due to Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Fast, JG 52, IV
Eberwein, Manfred, Oblt., 56, JG 52, JG 54, DKiG, , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Barbas, I./JG 52; Fast, JG 52, IV; Scutts, JG 54
Sterl, Andreas, Ltn., 56, JG 52, DKiG, , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Barbas, II./JG 52; Fast, JG 52
Holtz, Helmut, Fw., 56, JG 51, DKiG, POW on 18-Apr-44., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Aders/Held, JG 51
Tautscher, Gabriel, Uffz., 55, JG 51, DKiG, KIA on 12-Jan-44., Aders/Held, JG 51
Olsen, Kurt, Ltn., 54, JG 54, DKiG, , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock
Hauswirth, Wilhelm, Fw., 54, JG 52, DKiG, MIA on 5-Jul-43 due to Flak., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Fast, JG 52, IV, p.98
Reiff, Hans, FhjFw., 54, JG 3, DKiG, KIA on 2-Dec-44 due to Luftkampf with P-47s., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien, III./JG 3; Prien/Stemmer, Stab und I./JG 3
Sommer, Adalbert, Hptm., 53, JG 52, JG 2, DKiG, KIA on 14-Mar-44., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Fast, JG 52
Quarda, Josef, Fhr., 52, JG 54, EJG 1, DK?, KIA on 5-May-45 by own Flak., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Boc
Wefers, Heinrich, Ofw., 52, JG 54, DKiG, KIA on 18-May-43., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Scutts, JG 54
Brill, Karl, Ltn., 52, JG 54, JG 7, DKiG, Maybe only 35., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Scutts, JG 54; Barbas, Planes of the Luftwaffe Aces, II; Boehme, JG 7; Foreman/Harvey, Me262 Combat Diary
Grumme, Ernst-Dietrich, Ltn., 51, JG 51, JG 302, DKiG, KIA on 14-Jul-44., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Lw im Focus #4, p.43; Reschke, JG 301/302, p.241
Dilling, August, Ofw., 51, JG 3, DKiG, KIA on 14-Jun-44 due to Luftkampf with B-26s., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien/Stemmer, II./JG 3; Prien/Stemmer, Stab und I./JG 3
Küken, Wilhelm, Fw., 51, JG 51, JGr.Ost, DKiG, Killed on 2-Apr-44., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Aders/Held, JG 51
Stendel, Fritz, Hptm., 49, JG 51, JG 5, DKiG, , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Aders/Held, JG 51
Müller, August, Ofw., 49, JG 51, DKiG, KIA on 6-Apr-45. (Gustl? Gustav?), Aders/Held, JG 51
Arnold, Heinz, Ofw., 49, JG 5, JG 7, DK?, MIA on 17-Apr-45. 7 w/Me262, O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Girbig, JG 5, Foreman/Harvey, Me262 Combat Diary; Boehme, JG 7
Koller, Heribert, Ofw., 49, JG 54, , , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; FB
Toll, Günther, Ofw., 49, JG 2, JG 52, DKiG, WIA on 7-Jul-43 due to Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Fast, JG 52, IV
Müller, Xaver, Ofw., 47, JG 54, DKiG, KIA on 27-Aug-43 by Flak., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Scutts, JG 54; Barbas, Planes of the Luftwaffe Aces, II
Seidel, Georg, Ofw., 47, JG 51, DKiG, KIA on 6-Mar-43., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Aders/Held, JG 51
Tangermann, Kurt, Ltn., 46, JG 54, JG 52, JG 7, DKiG?, 304 ff, O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Boehme, JG7, Foreman/Harvey, Me262 Combat Diary
Daspelgruber, Franz, Oblt., 46, JG 3, DKiG, Stkp. MIA on 16-Jul-43., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien, IV./JG 3
Surau, Alfred, Ofw., 46, JG 3, DKiG, KIA 14-Oct-43., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien, III./JG 3
Theimann, Wilhelm, Ofw., 45, JG 51, DKiG, MIA on 29-Jul-43., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Aders/Held, JG 51
Ratzlaff, Kurt, Ofw., 45, JG 52, DKiG, KIA on 29-Sep-42 after Luftkampf. FSA, shot in chute. (68 per Fast), O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Fast, JG 52, IV, p.77
Föhl, Heinz, Ltn., 45, JG 52, , Is this legit? No claims via docs yet., Fast, JG 52
Vinzent, Otto, Oblt., 45, JG 54, DKiG, KIA on 4-Jan-44., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Scutts, JG 54
Mai, Lothar, Ofw., 45, JG 51, DKiG, KIA on 27-Aug-43., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Aders/Held, JG 51
Frese, Hans, Ltn., 44, JG 3, DKiG, Stfhr. KIA on 8-Mar-44 due to Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Stemmer, II./JG 3; Prien/Stemmer, Stab und I./JG 3
Dettke, Alfred, Fw., 44, JG 54, DKiG, KIA on 5-Jan-43 due to Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock
Reinhardt, Hans-Günther, Fw., 44, JG 54, JG 1, DKiG, WIA on 8-Oct-43 due to Luftkampf with B-17s., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien/Rodeike, JG 1 & 11, I
Quante, Richard, Fw., 44, JG 51, DKiG, KIA on 14-Aug-42 due to Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Aders/Held, JG 51
Decker, Otto, Oblt., 43, JG 52, DKiG, Stkp. KIA on 27-Aug-42 by Flak., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Fast, JG 52, IV, p.73
Miksch, Alfred, Fw., 43, JG 3, JG 1, DKiG, KIA on 1-Dec-43 due to Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien & Rodeike, JG 1 & 11
Stolte, Paul-August, Hptm., 43, JG 54, JG 1, JG 3, DKiG, KIA on 18-Oct-43., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien/Stemmer, II./JG 3
Niese, Erhard, Oblt., 43, I(J)/LG 2, JG 77, JG 4, DKiG, Stkp. KIA on 18-Feb-45 in crash., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien, JG 77, IV
Plücker, Karl-Heinz, Oblt., 42, JG 52, DKiG, Stkp. KIA on 10-May-44 due to Flak., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Barbas, I./JG 52; Fast, JG 52, IV, p. 124
Hannig, Norbert, Ltn., 42, JG 54, JG 7, DKiG, , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Scutts, JG 54; Boehme, JG 7
Haala, Sigurd, Oblt., 42, JG 54, DKiG, Stkp. POW on 21-Aug-44 due to Flak., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock
Gabl, Josef, FhjOfw., 42, JG 51, DKiG, , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Aders/Held, JG 51
Reinhold, Gerhard, Ofw., 41+, JG 5, JG 7, DKiG, KIA on 4-Apr-45. 250~ ff, Girbig, JG 5; Boehme, JG 7; Foreman/Harvey, Me262 Combat Diary
Saborowski, Rudolf, Ofw., 41, JG 3, DKiG, KIA on 8-Jul-42 due to Luftkampf with Pe-2 and MiG-3., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien, III./JG 3
Boos, Hans, Oblt., 41, JG 3, JG 51, DKiG, KIA on 21-Apr-43 in Luftkamp., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Aders/Held, JG 51
Schneider, Gerhard, Ltn., 41, JG 51, JGr.Ost, DKiG, KIA on 5-Jan-44., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Aders/Held, JG 51

Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces
 

Schwarz, Günther, Fw., 40~, JG 51, DKiG, KIA on 24-Oct-43 due to Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Aders/Held, JG 51
Schütte, Josef, Ofw., 40, JG 3, DKiG, KIA on 4-Dec-43 due to Luftkampf with P-47s., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien/Stemmer, II./JG 3
Heitkamp, Walter, Ofw., 40, JG 52, DKiG, KIC 7-Apr-43. (28 doc.), O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Barbas, I./JG 52; Fast, JG 52
Seckel, Georg, Hptm., 40, JG 77, JGr. 200, JG 4, DKiG, , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien, JG 77, III, IV
Segatz, Hermann, Hptm., 40, JG 26, JG 51, JG 5, JG 1, DKiG, KIA on 8-Mar-44 due to Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien & Rodeike, JG 1 & 11, II; Aders/Held, JG 51; Girbig, JG 5
Lausch, Bernard, Ofw., 40, JG 51, DKiG, KIA on 4-Jul-42., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Aders/Held, JG 51
Hessel, Bernhard, Fw., 40, JG 51, DKiG, MIA on 2-Sep-43., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Aders/Held, JG 51
Hähnlein, Georg, Ltn., 40, JG 54, , KIA on 25-Aug-44., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Scutts, JG 54
Bremer, Peter, Fw., 40, JG 54, DKiG, POW on 13-Jul-43., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Scutts, JG 54
Sinner, Rudolf, Major, 39, JG 27, JG 54, JG 7, DKiG, 305 ff, O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Ring/Girbig, JG 27; Boehme, JG 7; Foreman/Harvey, Me262 Combat Diary
Ludwig, Georg, FhjOfw., 39, JG 77, DKiG, , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien, JG 77, IV
Schöpper, Hans-Wilhelm, Oblt., 39, JGr.186, JG 77, JG 4, DKiG, Stkp. WIA on 12-Feb-44 due to Luftkampf. Maybe just 17!, O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien, JG 77, IV; Mombeek, Sturmjäger, I & II
Rüttger, Karl, Oblt., 39, JG 52, DKiG, Stfhr. POW on 1-Jul-42 after Bauchlandung due to engine damage from Luftkampf. Survived!, O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Barbas, I./JG 52; Fast, JG 52, IV, p.68
Lübking, August, Ofw., 38+, JG 5, JG 7, DKiG, KIA on 22-Mar-45. 3 in 262., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Girbig, JG 5; Boehme, JG 7; Foreman/Harvey, Me262 Combat Diary
Marotzke, Horst, Ltn., 38, JG 77, DKiG, Stfhr. MIA on 11-Dec-42., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien, JG 77, IV
Busch, Rudolf, Oblt., 38, JG 51, DKiG, Stkp. KIFA on 17-Jan-43., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Aders/Held, JG 51
Reibel, Ludwig, Ofw., 38, JG 53, DKiG, KIA on 20-Dec-42 by Flak during low-level attack., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien, JG 53, II
Lüth, Detlef, Ofw., 38, JG 3, JG 1, DKiG, KIA on 6-Mar-44 due to Luftkampf with B-17., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien & Rodeike, JG 1 & 11, I, II
Peissert, Herbert, Uffz., 38, JG 53, DKiG, MIA on 4-Sep-42 after Luftkampf with LaGG-3., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien, JG 53, II
Baumann, Helmut, Ltn., 38, JG 51, DKiG, KIA on 17-Feb-44., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Aders/Held, JG 51
Lehner, Alfred, Ltn., 37~, JG 5, JG 7, DKiG, KIA 4-Apr-45., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Girbig, JG 5; Boehme, JG 7; Foreman/Harvey, Me262 Combat Diary
Volke, Maximilian, FhjOfw., 37, JG 77, DKiG, KIA on 5-Sep-44 due to Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien, JG 77, III
Ransmayer, Hans, Ltn., 37, JG 54, DKiG, KIA on 20-Sep-44., O.K.L. Fighter Claims
Gleissner, Hans, Fw., 37, JG 52, DKiG, KIA on 20-Apr-43, rammed by a P-40., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Barbas, II./JG 52; Fast, JG 52, IV, p.90
Walter, Albert, Oblt., 37, JG 51, DKiG, MIA on 13-Jul-43 due to Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Aders/Held, JG 51
Hartrampf, Horst, Oblt., 37, JG 54, DKiG, Stkp. KIA on 26-Aug-44 due to Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims
Zander, Friedrich, Ofw., 37, JG 54, JG 1, DKiG, KIA on 26-Dec-44 due to Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien & Rodeike, JG 1 & 11, III; Scutts, JG 54
Rolly, Horst, Ofw., 36, JG 5, JG 400, DKiG, KIFA on 2-Nov-44., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Girbig, JG 5
Keil, Georg, Ltn., 36, JG 11, , , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Rodeike, JG 1 & 11, III
Stengel, Walter, Oblt., 36, JG 51, DKiG, , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Aders/Held, JG 51
Stöber, Kurt, Ofw., 36, JG 54, DKiG, POW on 15-Jan-43 after Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Scutts, JG 54
Wehnelt, Herbert, Hptm., 36, JG 20, JG 51, DKiG, Stkp., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Aders/Held, JG 51
Zink, Fülbert, Hptm., 36, JG 26, DKiG, Stkp. MIA on 14-Mar-43., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien/Priller, JG 26
Kornatz, Hans, Oblt., 36, JG 53, DKiG, Stkp. (maybe 44), O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Fast, JG 52; Prien, JG 53, III
Löhr, Ernst-Heinz, Oblt., 36, JG 3, DKiG, Stkp. KIA on 24-Feb-44 due to Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien/Stemmer, Stab und I./JG 3
Zibler, Emil, Fw., 36, JG 3, DKiG, MIA on 5-Jul-43 after Luftkampf with Pe-2s., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien, III./JG 3, p.456, 498
Widowitz, Wulf-Dietrich, Oblt., 36, JG 5, DKiG, Stkp. Killed on 28-Jul-43., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Girbig, JG 5
Nordmann, Jürgen, Fw., 36, JG 52, DKiG, WIA on 6-Jun-44 due to Luftkampf with 8 P-39s. (34 doc.), O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Barbas, I./JG 52; Fast, JG 52, IV, p.126
Sawallisch, Erwin, Ofw., 36, JG 77, JG 27, DKiG, KIC on 19-Aug-42. 3 in Spain., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Ring/Girbig, JG 27
Ernst, Wolfgang, Oblt., 36, JG 77, JG 53, DKiG, , Prien & Rodeike, JG 1 & 11, II; Prien, JG 53, III
Eyrich, Waldemar, Fw., 36, JG 3, DKiG, KIA on 11-Apr-44 due to Luftkampf with enemy fighters., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Stemmer, II./JG 3
Ulbrich, Martin, Fw., 35+, JG 51, DKiG, , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Aders/Held, JG 51
Hamer, Joachim, Ltn., 35~, JG 51, DKiG, MIA on 3-Sep-43., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Aders/Held, JG 51
Meyer, Rudolf, Ofw., 35~, JG 51, DKiG, , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Aders/Held, JG 51
Söffing, Waldemar, Ofw., 35, JG 26, DKiG, , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Caldwell; Priller, JG 26
Greisert, Karl-Heinz, Major, 35, J/88, JG 2, JG 3, DKiG, Gr.Kdr. KIA on 22-Jul-42 due to Luftkampf. 1 in Spain., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien, III./JG 3
Bringmann, Arnold, Fw., 35, JG 3, JV 44?, DK?, , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien, IV./JG 3; Prien/Stemmer, II./JG 3; Prien/Stemmer, Stab & I./JG 3
Kühlein, Elias, Ltn., 35, JG 51, JG 7, DKiG, 600~ ff, O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Aders/Held, JG 51; Boehme, JG 7; Foreman/Harvey, Me262 Combat Diary
Walther, Horst, Oblt., 35, JG 51, DKiG, , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Aders/Held, JG 51
Mazurek, Marian, Fw., 35, JG 53, DKiG, KIA on 9-Jun-43 due to Luftkampf with B-24s., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien, JG 53, II
Heinzeller, Josef, Oblt., 35, I(J)/LG2, JG 3, JG 2, JG 54, DKiG, , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien, JG 77, I; Scutts, JG 54; Prien/Stemmer, II./JG 3
Schmetzer, Reinhold, Ofw., 35, JGr.186, JG 77, JG 4, DKiG, KIA on 7-May-44., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien, JG 77, II; Mombeek, Sturmjäger, I
Helmer, Robert, Ofw., 35, JG 77, DKiG, KIA on 26-Feb-43 due to Luftkampf with P-40., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien, JG 77, III
Einsiedel, Heinrich Graf von, Ltn., 35, JG 2, JG 3, DKiG, POW on 30-Aug-42 due to Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien, III./JG 3
Bertram, Günther, Oblt., 35, KG 4, NJschwarm LW-Kdo Ost, NJG 100, DKiG, , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; LW NF Claims 39-45; Aders, History of the German Night Fighter Force 1917-1945
Müller, Siegfried, Ofw., 35, JG 54, JG 26, DKiG, KIA on 21-Feb-45 due to Luftkampf with P-47s., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Scutts, JG 54; Urbanke, Green Hearts
Luy, August, Ofw., 35, JG 5, DKiG, , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Girbig, JG 5
Wettstein, Helmut, Hptm., 34, JG 54, , Stkp., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Scutts, JG 54
Baumgartner, Wilhelm, Ofw., 34, JG 77, DKiG, KIA on 11-Apr-43 due to Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien, JG 77, III, p.1517
Scholz, Günther, Major, 34, JG 54, JG 5, JG 101, DKiG, , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Scutts, JG 54; Girbig, JG 5
Aloé, Herbert, Hptm., 34, JG 54, DKiG, MIA on 21-Jun-44., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Scutts, JG 54
Bacsila, Erwin, Major, 34, JG 52, JG 77, Sturmst.1, Erpro.16, JG 400, JG 3, DK?, 8 unconfirmed. 14 with JG 52 & JG 77. Final score total is unknown so far., Prien/Bock; Mombeek, Sturmstaffel 1; Jet & Prop, 5/95 p.41
Färber, Leonhard, Ltn., 34, JG 52, , Stkp. MIA on 27-Jan-45 due to Flak., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Barbas, I./JG 52; Fast, JG 52, IV, p.131
Taubenberger, Hans, Oblt., 34, JG 51, , , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Aders/Held, JG 51
Füreder, Georg, Ltn., 34, JG 54, JG 11, , , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien & Rodeike, JG 1 & 11, III; Scutts, JG 54
Rieckhoff, August, Ltn., 34, JG 52, , Stfhr. KIA on 9-Feb-45 by Flak., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Barbas, I./JG 52; Fast, JG 52, IV
Klemenz, Otto-Karl, Oblt., 34, JG 52, , Is this guy same as NF pilot?? (none doc.), Fast, JG 52
Heilmann, Wilhelm, Hptm., 34, JG 54, , , Scutts, JG 54
Schlick, Horst, Ltn., 34, JG 77, JG 7, DKiG, 480 ff, O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien, JG 77, IV; Boehme, JG 7; Foreman/Harvey, Me262 Combat Diary
Schmitz, Günther, Ltn., 34, JG 77, DKiG, WIA on 28-Jul-44 due to Luftkampf. POW on 28-Aug-, O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien, JG 77, IV; Scherzer
Krahnke, Wolfgang, Fw., 33+, JG 51, DKiG, KIA on 10-Sep-43 due to Flak., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Aders/Held, JG 51
Kossatz, Günther, Ltn., 33+, JG 51, DKiG, , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Aders/Held, JG 51
Eberle, Friedrich, Major, 33~, JG 51, JG 1, JG 4, DKiG, , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien & Rodeike, JG 1 & 11, II, III; Aders/Held, JG 51
Fischer, Kurt-Reinhard, Oblt., 33, JG 54, DKiG, Stfhr. KIA on 8-Dec-43 due to Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Scutts, JG 54
Weidlich, Bruno, Fw., 33, JG 77, DKiG, WIA on 4-Mar-43., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien, JG 77, III
Schlüter, Harro, Ltn., 33, JG 3, DKiG, Stfhr. KIFA on 15-Apr-44., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Stemmer, Stab und I./JG 3
Stratznicky, Erwin, Oblt., 33, I(J)/LG 2, JG 77, JG 3, DKiG, Stkp. MIA on 3-Oct-42 after Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien/Stemmer, Stab und I./JG 3
Leykauf, Erwin, Oblt., 33, JG 54, JG 26, JG 7, DKiG, 551 ff, 8 at night., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; LW NF Claims 39-45; Priller, JG 26; Boehme, JG 7
Wolter, Robert, Uffz., 33, JG 77, DKiG, MIA on 2-Oct-42 after mid-air collision., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock
Beyer, Heinz, Ofw., 33, JG 5, DKiG, , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Girbig, JG 5
Cech, Franz, Fw., 33, JG 3, DKiG, WIA on 27-Sep-43, no more combat. (Some sources say 65.), O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Stemmer, II./JG 3
Kurz, Günther, Ltn., 33, JG 52, DKiG, KIA on 11-Oct-43 due to Luftkampf with La-5., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Barbas, II./JG 52; Fast, JG 52, IV, p.114
Brückmann, Fritz, Ltn., 33, JG 52, DKiG, KIA on 20-Jul-42 due to Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Fast, JG 52, IV, p.70
Glöckner, Rudolf, Oblt., 32, JG 77, JG 5, , Gr.Kdr., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Girbig, JG 5
Matuschka, Siegfried Graf von, Oblt., 32, JG 54, DKiG, Stkp. KIA on 15-Apr-43., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Scutts, JG 54
Lieres und Wilkau, Karl von, Oblt., 32, JG 27, DKiG, Stkp. KIA on 11-Jun-43 due to Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Ring/Girbig, JG 27
Rabiega, Josef, Ofw., 32, JG 52, , (Only 21 doc.), O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Barbas, II./JG 52; Fast, JG 52
Prager, Hans, Ltn., 32, JG 54, JG 26, , Total may only be 23., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Scutts, JG 54; Priller, JG 26; Frappé, La LW face au débarquement allié,
Neuböck, Ludwig, Oblt., 32, JG 52, , , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Fast, JG 52
Hohenberg, Werner, Fw., 32, JG 52, JG 2, DKiG, POW on 1-Jan-45., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Fast, JG 52, IV
Furch, Ralph, Ltn., 32, JG 51, DKiG, Stkp. KIA on 22-Jan-43 due to Flak., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Aders/Held, JG 51
Heck, Walter, Fw., 32, JG 54, DKiG, KIFA on 22-May-43., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Scutts, JG 54
Schuster, Hermann, Ltn., 32, JG 3, DKiG, KIA on 21-Jul-43 due to Luftkampf with Il-2., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Stemmer, II./JG 3
Lange, Helmut, FhjOfw., 32, JG 51, , , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Aders/Held, JG 51
Brand, Richard, Ofw., 32, JG 51, DKiG, MIA on 22-Aug-43 after Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Aders/Held, JG 51
Wiegand, Günther, Ltn., 32, JG 26, DKiG, 7 Viermots, O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Flugbuch; Priller, JG 26; Caldwell
Friedrich, Erich, Oblt., 31+, JG 77, DKiG, Stkp., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien, JG 77, II
Geyer, Horst, Major, 31, JG 51, Epr.Kdo 25, EKdo 262, DKiG, Maybe 35., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Aders/Held, JG 51; Foreman/Harvey, Me262 Combat Diary
Fränzel, Herbert, Ltn., 31, JG 52, JG 11, , Stfhr. MIA on 27-Sep-44 due to own Flak. (Only 10 doc.), O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Barbas, II./JG 52; Prien & Rodeike, JG 1 & 11, III
Meindl, Franz, Ofw., 31, JG 51, JG 11, DKiG, MIA on 1-Jan-45., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien & Rodeike, JG 1 & 11, III; Aders/Held, JG 51
Merkle, Hans-Jörg, Fw., 31, JG 52, DKiG, KIA on 1-Aug-43, rammed by his 31. abschu§ a Yak-1., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Barbas, I./JG 52; Fast, JG 52, IV, p.102
Bartz, Erich, Uffz., 31, JG 51, EP, KIA on 25-Aug-44., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Aders/Held, JG 51
Bachmann, Friedrich-Wilhelm, Ltn., 31, JG 52, DKiG, Stkp. MIA on 4-Sep-42 after Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Barbas, I./JG 52; Fast, JG 52, IV, p.74
Seidl, Alfred, Oblt., 31, JG 53, JG 3, JG 7, DKiG, 614 ff, O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien, JG 53, III; Prien/Stemmer, Stab & I./JG 3
Hacker, Joachim, Ltn., 31, JG 51, DKiG, KIA on 13-Oct-41 due to Luftkampf., Prien/Bock; Aders/Held, JG 51
Schulz, Hans-Gottfried, Hptm., 31, JG 51, , , Aders/Held, JG 51
Crump, Peter, Ofw., 31, JG 26, JG 54, , , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; FB; Priller, JG 26
Schmude, Karl-Heinz, Ltn., 31, JG 54, JG 7, , , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Scutts, JG 54; Boehme, JG 7; Foreman/Harvey, Me262 Combat Diary
Weiß, Franz, Ltn., 31, JG 5, , , Girbig, JG 5
Vögl, Ferdinand, Hptm., 31, JG 27, DKiG, Stkp. Injured on 19-Apr-43., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Ring/Girbig, JG 27; Prien/Rodeike/Stemmer, II./JG 27
Schwienteck, Georg, Ofw., 31, JG 52, DKiG, , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Barbas, I./JG 52; Fast, JG 52, IV
Zick, Siegfried, Ltn., 31, JG 1, JG 11, DKiG, WIA on 18-Jul-44. 17 Viermots, O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien & Rodeicke, JG 1 & 11, II, p. 1210, III, p.1236
Lautenschläger, Gerhard, Fw., 31, JG 54, DKiG, MIA on 16-May-42 due to Flak., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Scutts, JG 54

Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces
 

I have about 2910 names with 5 or more claims, and haven't worked on this list in some time during which my claims list has been has been updated significantly. I have over 73K claims listed, including some 360+ from Spain. I expect that as the 'Jagdwaffe' series progresses and claims are updated from that, some guys may fall off, some may be added. And that series only includes fighter units.

Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces
 

Johannes

I know from your posts in the past that when you do these lists like this one, you only count the victories that you have seen evidence of the claim being confirmed in the RLM files. However, have you looked a Dr Prein’s work that he has done for the JFV series. Dr Prien has brought to light many corrections to the mis-read hand written records on the RLM files and many additional claims (many confirmed).

In his works he’s marked those claims that he has documented evidence that they had been confirmed with a B (Bestätigt).Those that he found that were officially not confirmed he marked with n.b. (nicht bestätigt)and not included in the pilot’s personal tally. For the claims that Prien cannot find any documented evidence to support confirmation he still included in the score but without the confirmation letter B. Therefore a claim which Prien has not been able to confirm because of a lack of evidence is different to a claim that was not confirmed (rejected?). I personally believe Dr Priens system is a better system as it is like innocent until proven guilty and not guilty due to lack of evidence.

Anyway, I raise this because in the case of Peter Bremer you have him listed at 37 victories though he is commonly recorded at 40 victories. In Prien’s JFV series he lists the first 20 of Bremer’s victories (up to Bremer’s 24/1/43 victory – as far as the series go at this stage) of which all have been marked B which designates that he has evidence that all 20 were confirmed. The next 20 victories are listed on the claims list with anerk numbers which indicate that all these were also confirmed. This makes Bremer’s total of 40 confirmed claims as reported and generally accepted.

Regards,

Craig…

Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces
 

Hi Graig

Some good points. Sometimes there are time-periods when the micro films(for whatever reason) seem to be missing details from certain units, the most noteable is JG5, moreover the daily micro film entries generally start in late July 1942 and end at varingly times in December 1944, but some units do not, after years of studying the micro films I know which units started when, also there are complete lists prior to the daily account, some of these are missing, point is I have taken all this into account. The KBT documents of 1945 often marks a pilots claim with a number i.e August Lamaberts last is marked as nr 103, so his total of 116(widely believed) is probably at fault, moreover the 116 were widely believed to be all Russian aircraft, yet his 103rd was an American Mustang on 17th April 1945. Like JG5 SG2's claims on the micro films are sporadic, but unlike JG5's that are mostly there SG2's are largely missing.
Going by memory I think that it is Herbert Kaiser's Russian claims that are recorded under a different name, and there is a Joachim Müncheberg entry for Russia when he was claearly in the West, also a few are given dates a day or two after the pilots death or wounded, apart from wrong units given(A Friedrich Obleser one springs to mind). With Woidich we are accepting 110, yet even his own log-book gives just eighty-two, moreover I have dates for the other twenty-eight(which are given during a time when his conrades are all recorded), these twenty-eight when you look at them are completely out of character with his usual claiming patern i.e are all multiple claims daily to his usual very slow steady rate. Bernd Barbas has a copy of his offical(Woidich's) list, and was to meet Woidich for the first time to question this , but Woidich sadly died that day! Another point is that some pilots wanted to forget the war. Bernd and myself wrote to Karl Gratz about his lack of western claims i.e he is generally accepted as 138 claims, seventeen west!, but he didn't even want to talk about the war, which as he pointed out was a small piece of his lifespan!

So is short if I have a pilot who's accepted(without evidence)claims do not appear on the micro films, yet his conrades flying in the same staffel do, then it just should not be, but we also have to think where this pilots accepted claims came from, he probably didn't survive the war, so is propably nothing of his going.

~Innocent until proven guilty, if there are 1945 claims for a pilot I will generally accept them, if from a log-book then I assume they would have been confimed in the fullness of time! Best log-book to look at for 1945 is Peter Düttmann's for deatil, thoough I did find a few of his offical 150 were never confirmed, and a few of his unconfirmed were confirmed, he also had two tanks in his total, but as tanks do not fly I have dis-counted these, (Hans Ellendt also had two tanks among his offical sixty-four, Peter-Georg Eder likewise) I also don't count aircraft destroyed on the ground!

But the whole purpose of this line is to question each other to arrive at some sort of fact based truth, and let's not forget the "Cast in stone" theory where if something is published in a book it is fact.
Years ago a friend of mine who know the ace Marquardt forwarded him a list I had pieced together for him because his log-book had been lost, unfortunalety I had ommitted two claims, years later I found his list somewhwere, with the two omitions, I checked it against my updated version not realising it was my own work, and it was sometime before I worked out it was an earler version of my on work!

Anyway I'll do my 30-39 list next, and hope to enjoy some more corrections/additions.

Regards

Johannes

Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces
 

Hi Guys

There are quite a number 30-39 aces so I'll do it in blocks. Please again be critical, I will check all queries. Any unexplained descrepancies I'll forward the complete list and we can all debate from there!

Karl Rüttger 39(4 west) ?-? DKiG
Friedrich Heimann 39(1 west) 1916-16th April 1944 DKiG
Bernhardt Hessel 38 in the East 1920-2nd September 1943
August Lübking 38(4 viermots) 8th July 1918-28th March 1945 DKiG
Alfred Miksch 38(2 west, 1 viermot) 3rd January 1919-1st December 1943 DKiG.
Peter Bremer 37 in the East 18th December 1919-? DKiG
Maximillian Gregor Volke 37(9 west, 3 viermots) 23th May 1915-5th September 1944 DKiG.
Johannes Gleissner 37 in the East ?-20th April 1943 DKiG
Alfred Emberger 37 in the East 2nd December 1920-12th June 1942 DKiG
Josef Gäbl 36+ in the East ?-survived DKiG
Waldemar Eyrich 36(1 viermot) ?-11th April 1944 DKiG
Siegfried Müller 36(5 west, 3 viermots) 10th November 1917-21st February 1945 DKiG.
Mato Dukovac 36 in the East 23rd September 1918-??September 1990 DKiG.
Kurt Stöber 36 in the East 24th April 1918-3rd May 2000 DKiG
Horst Hartrampf 36 in the East 4th April 1921-26th August 1944 DKiG
Gerhard Reinhold 36(2 viermots) 1919-4th April 1945 DKiG
Ernst-Heinz Löhr 36(2 west) ?-22nd February 1944 DKiG
Hans Rausmayer 36 in the East 24th August 1920-20th September 1944
Bernhard Lausch 36(5 west) 21st July 1916-4th July 1942 DKiG
Füllbert Zink c.36(c.33west) ?-14th March 1943 DKiG
Leonhard Färber 35(1 west) 16th March 1924-27th January 1945
Cvitan Galic c.35 in the East 5th May 1909-6th April 1944 DKiG
Karl-Heinz Greisert 35(24 west, 1 Spain,1 viermot) 2nd February 1908-22nd July 1942 DKiG,SK.
Josef Heinzeller 35(10 west) 10th June 1915-survived
Horst Walther 35(4 west, 2 viermots) ?-survived DKiG
Herbert Aloe 35 in the East ?-21st June 1944 DKiG
Heinrich von Einseidel 35(2 west) 26th July 1921-18th July 2007 DKiG
Erwin Sawallisch 35(24 west, 3 Spain) 8th October 1914-19th august 1942 DKiG,SK.
Emil Zibler 35 in the East ?-5th July 1943 DKiG
Albert Walter 35 in the East 1918-13th July 1944 DKiG
August Müller 34+ in the East ?-6th April 1945 DKiG
Hans Kornatz 34+(9 west) 29th December 1915-23rd August 2002 DKiG
Waldemar Söffing 34(22 west, 1 viermot) 14th August 1916-26th May 1993 DKiG.
Marian Mazurek 34(5 west, 1 viermot) 15th August 1920-9th June 1943 DKiG.
Jürgen Normann 34 in the East ?-survived DKiG?(questionable)
Georg Seckel 34(6 west, 2 viermots) ?-survived DKiG
Friedrich Zander 34(3 west, 1 viermot) ?-26th December 1944 DKiG.

Please check photos for evidence for those that appear not to have received the DKiG.

Regards

Johannes

Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces
 

Johannes,


Working with Stalingrad and Eastern front I noted that many German aces used to mix plane types that they claim. Some cases were rather ridiculous. I remember one day Gemans claimed several I-180s that turned out to be P-40s, La-5s and even one I-16. Barkhorn, for instance, in November-December 1942 claimed several P-40 with no P-40 presented on that area at all. The question was it really that Germans did not bother of the types or that is connected with other reasons?
Mixing the types of single-engine fighters such as Mig-3, Yak-1/7, Lagg-3 was a common practise among almost all...

Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces
 

Hi Nikita

Strange that JG52 and JG3 should claim so many mistaken P-40's when they were pre-dominately used in the far North. Answer is probably the Bf109's poor visibility. Also JG52 tended to standardise aircraft i.e La-5's and LaGG-3's became LaGG's, JG54 rounded there times off generally to the nearest five minutes.........just quirks I guess.

This is all assuming that the claims were not made up, and I believe Barkhorn was honest. Also we must not forget that the Luftwaffe pilots approach to combat was in at speed, attack, and away!

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces
 

I can add here that anonymous Lagg can be also IL-2, I met several cases.

As regards to Barkhorn, nobody states that his claims were made up, in this occasions they were La-5s. But, how the experienced pilot (around 100 vic at that time) could mix them up. BTW, his wingman claimed P-40s as well.

Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces
 

Hi
I thank you for all the information. Right now I`m building a colection of bios. of Luftwaffe pilots in Office Power Point, with born cities and i came accross with Leopold Múnster, pilot that somebody requested information and I`m able to send.

Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces
 

Gentlemen,

I found Hauptmann Hans-Joachim Langer with 58 air victories and a holder of the German Cross In Gold. His units were JG-53,JG-51,and JG-7. He survived World War II.
Hans Reiff of JG-3 has 54 air victories by the middle of May 1944. All 54 victories were Soviet warplanes. Reiff was moved to Germany for defense against US bombers. I'm surprised that there was no recorded victories against the Western Allied warplanes for Reiff. He was KIA on Dec.2,1944.

Sincerely,

Edward L. Hsiao

Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces
 

Gentlemen,

You can add Hans-Joachim Langer who was a Hauptmann and had about 58 victories. I think he was born in the 1920's.

Sincerely,

Edward L. Hsiao

Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces
 

Gentlemen,

The list of all the German pilots who scored in the 30's,40's,and 50's are pretty interesting to look at. Those who scored in the 50's were deserving of the Ritterkreuz.

Sincerely,

Edward L. Hsiao

Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces
 

Gentlemen,

I found something on Kracker Archives of Ernst-Dietrich Grumme. The air kill score of this Luftwaffe fighter ace was only 28. Sometimes that website contains plenty of errors.

Sincerely,

Edward L. Hsiao

Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces
 

Edward,

The recently published Luftwaffe Aces: Biographies and Victory Claims, Volume 2, by Mathews and Foreman, lists 52 victories for him.

Enjoy!

Frank.

Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces
 

Johannes, I would be interested in comparing lists. I haven't worked on mine for a while, but I have some 2900 with 5+ claims to go with 70K+ claims. PM me.

In the meantime - for 49 - 40 claims I have (in 2 parts) -

Arnold, Heinz, Ofw., 49, JG 5, JG 7, DK?, MIA on 17-Apr-45. 7 w/Me262, O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Girbig, JG 5, Foreman/Harvey, Me262 Combat Diary; Boehme, JG 7
Koller, Heribert, Ofw., 49, JG 54, , , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; FB
Müller, August, Ofw., 49, JG 51, DKiG, KIA on 6-Apr-45. (Gustl? Gustav?), Aders/Held, JG 51
Stendel, Fritz, Hptm., 49, JG 51, JG 5, DKiG, , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Aders/Held, JG 51
Toll, Günther, Ofw., 49, JG 2, JG 52, DKiG, WIA on 7-Jul-43 due to Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Fast, JG 52, IV
Seidel, Georg, Ofw., 47, JG 51, DKiG, KIA on 6-Mar-43., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Aders/Held, JG 51
Müller, Xaver, Ofw., 47, JG 54, DKiG, KIA on 27-Aug-43 by Flak., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Scutts, JG 54; Barbas, Planes of the Luftwaffe Aces, II
Tangermann, Kurt, Ltn., 46, JG 54, JG 52, JG 7, DKiG?, 304 ff, O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Boehme, JG7, Foreman/Harvey, Me262 Combat Diary
Surau, Alfred, Ofw., 46, JG 3, DKiG, KIA 14-Oct-43., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien, III./JG 3
Daspelgruber, Franz, Oblt., 46, JG 3, DKiG, Stkp. MIA on 16-Jul-43., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien, IV./JG 3
Theimann, Wilhelm, Ofw., 45, JG 51, DKiG, MIA on 29-Jul-43., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Aders/Held, JG 51
Vinzent, Otto, Oblt., 45, JG 54, DKiG, KIA on 4-Jan-44., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Scutts, JG 54
Ratzlaff, Kurt, Ofw., 45, JG 52, DKiG, KIA on 29-Sep-42 after Luftkampf. FSA, shot in chute. (68 per Fast), O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Fast, JG 52, IV, p.77
Föhl, Heinz, Ltn., 45, JG 52, , Is this legit? No claims via docs yet., Fast, JG 52
Mai, Lothar, Ofw., 45, JG 51, DKiG, KIA on 27-Aug-43., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Aders/Held, JG 51
Frese, Hans, Ltn., 44, JG 3, DKiG, Stfhr. KIA on 8-Mar-44 due to Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Stemmer, II./JG 3; Prien/Stemmer, Stab und I./JG 3
Reinhardt, Hans-Günther, Fw., 44, JG 54, JG 1, DKiG, WIA on 8-Oct-43 due to Luftkampf with B-17s., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien/Rodeike, JG 1 & 11, I
Quante, Richard, Fw., 44, JG 51, DKiG, KIA on 14-Aug-42 due to Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Aders/Held, JG 51
Dettke, Alfred, Fw., 44, JG 54, DKiG, KIA on 5-Jan-43 due to Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock
Stolte, Paul-August, Hptm., 43, JG 54, JG 1, JG 3, DKiG, KIA on 18-Oct-43., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien/Stemmer, II./JG 3
Miksch, Alfred, Fw., 43, JG 3, JG 1, DKiG, KIA on 1-Dec-43 due to Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien & Rodeike, JG 1 & 11
Decker, Otto, Oblt., 43, JG 52, DKiG, Stkp. KIA on 27-Aug-42 by Flak., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Fast, JG 52, IV, p.73
Niese, Erhard, Oblt., 43, I(J)/LG 2, JG 77, JG 4, DKiG, Stkp. KIA on 18-Feb-45 in crash., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien, JG 77, IV