Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum

Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/index.php)
-   The Second World War in General (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/forumdisplay.php?f=28)
-   -   Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962? (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=61959)

Franek Grabowski 21st May 2022 16:06

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
I have reviewed Baumgart file prepared by local security services, but there was nothing really interesting. Baumgart was found not reliable, and his stories of no value.
That said, the funny thing is that the evidence of Hitler's death, as well as some other prominent figures is somewhat inconclusive. Too much disinformation has been spread after the war, and this leaves plenty of room for various conspiracy theories. There is a good question, why such stories were disseminated, and why body evidence was so happily destroyed.

edwest2 22nd May 2022 01:38

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
Franek,

What body evidence? The Russians had what they said was a portion of Hitler's skull on display and what they said was a portion of his jawbone in their archives.

Best,
Ed

Franek Grabowski 23rd May 2022 02:20

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by edwest2 (Post 319417)
Franek,

What body evidence? The Russians had what they said was a portion of Hitler's skull on display and what they said was a portion of his jawbone in their archives.

Best,
Ed


The skull piece is said to belong to an unknown woman, while there is reputedly a piece of jawbone or a teeth, and some blood samples. AFAIK the only positive identification comes from a comparison of a teeth to an x-ray of Hitler's jaw. No full profile DNA test and genealogical cross check. Otherwise, how can you prove that small peice of bone was recovered in Berlin, indeed.
Same situation in other cases, Bormann, Hess, Himmler. Reputedly forensic evidence was gathered, and the bodies destroyed, so you cannot prove that they died in the described circumstances, nor that those were their bodies indeed. It is really plenty of room for a foul play.
To be clear, I do not claim that Hitler and his gang lived ever after at a rancho in Texas, where they were joined by Elvis. I merely note, that the evidence gathered is quite weak, and may lead to some conspiracy theories.
In fact, I am most intrigued as to why Soviets did not reveal the fact that they have found Hitler's body or who was behind of some conspiracy theories, and what was the purpose of disseminating them. Such things do not happen without a reason.

Nick Beale 23rd May 2022 09:55

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
Didn’t they DNA-match remains found near the former Lehrter Bahnhof long after the war with living relatives of Bormann?

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11296895/

Franek Grabowski 23rd May 2022 22:12

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Beale (Post 319454)
Didn’t they DNA-match remains found near the former Lehrter Bahnhof long after the war with living relatives of Bormann?

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11296895/

They claim so, indeed, but as remains were then cremated, the test cannot be repeated, and DNA tests are prone for contamination and in case of older type of testing - errors. Great fuel for conspiracy theories.

edwest2 24th May 2022 02:42

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
Franek,


So you are saying the Soviets found Hitler's body and perhaps have other evidence but this is not conclusive? That the skull fragment they had on display being
found to be from an unidentified woman indicates to me that the Soviets were not being truthful. In 1963, Marshal Zhukov said: “We have found no body that could be Hitler's."

Either way, it appears the Soviets are telling two stories at minimum.

Franek Grabowski 24th May 2022 15:00

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
Ed
Soviets lied from the beginning, it was Empire of Lie, so it is not surprising that there was so much mess with Hitler's body. Reputedly they found some fakes, then the proper one, but not admitted to it for years, I think until late 1960s. Then provided fake information about the reason of death.
They then claim that all remains were destroyed on Andropov's order in 1970, except jawbone parts. Reputedly those confirm it is Hitler, because of X-Ray images, but again, with so many lies, how it could be proven they were found in 1945 or that available X-Rays are the ones of Hitler? How about the story that Hitler was murdered in the bunker, while Eva happilly escaped?
The death of Hitler was confirmed in testimonies against the German court. Did they tell the truth or not? Or, if they murdered Hitler, were they then blackmailed by Soviets?
And how about the claims, that through the war Hitler was so much doped, that he did not control anything, this based on his medical records?
The funny thing is, that the people rejecting conspiracy theories forget how thin the evidence of his death is. Now, we can assume that given his age, he is dead anyway, but as a pop culture icon he is very much alive and well. Perhaps the most well known person in the modern history.
Irony?

edwest2 24th May 2022 18:49

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
Franek,

I have seen a published photo of a Counter-Intelligence Corps officer crouching by the couch where Hitler allegedly shot himself. There is a stain on the fabric at the top back.

A "Special Flight" order was found among the files of Heinrich Müller, head of the Gestapo, dated 20 April 1945. The names of Hitler and Eva Braun were among the passenger list. After the war,
the FBI received reports of sightings of Hitler and Eva Braun in South America. So the Americans were in on it too?

Franek Grabowski 25th May 2022 04:10

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
Ed
For years Soviets claimed that Hitler did not shot himself. Then in 1990s I think, they revealed to have a part of Hitler's skull, Following examination, it was found to be too thin to be male's one.
The photo may suggest that someone was shot, but as long as we cannot examine blood sample, and make a full profile DNA test, we cannot be sure, to whom it belonged.
Re the alleged flight manifest, I understand that its authenticity has not been verified and the original document never surfaced. Plenty of fakes are circulating around, so I am not quite surprised.
Also, I am not surprised with reports of sightings of Hitler or other officials. There are people adamant that they saw Elvis recently. There are similar looking people or body doubles. I guess everyone had a situation where he mistook someone for someone else.
But where is the point?
There are basically two questions. What really had happened and who and why was disseminating false information. Why Soviets withheld information about finding Hitler's body and why some senior German officials claimed Muller was alive. I can imagine a journalist to make some lines in a silly season, but if such gossip comes from officials or is inspired by them, then, there must be some purpose in it.
I do not have answers for both.

edwest2 25th May 2022 18:07

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
Franek,

I appreciate your comments. Regarding the 'special flight,' there is a facsimile reproduction of the relevant document in the book, KG 200 - The Luftwaffe's Most Secret Unit by Geoffrey J. Thomas and Barry Ketley, on page 166.

Best,
Ed


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 16:57.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net