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-   -   Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962? (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=61959)

Nick Beale 25th May 2022 19:11

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by edwest2 (Post 319561)
Franek,

I appreciate your comments. Regarding the 'special flight,' there is a facsimile reproduction of the relevant document in the book, KG 200 - The Luftwaffe's Most Secret Unit by Geoffrey J. Thomas and Barry Ketley, on page 166.

Best,
Ed

That document, dated 20 April, talks of him leaving Hörsching on the 26th, so it's referring to something that hasn't happened at the time of writing. Does anyone seriously dispute that Hitler was still in Berlin after 26 April? Endless witnesses have descirbed seeing him in the bunker after that date.

Franek Grabowski 25th May 2022 21:37

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
Ed
Such a document could have been produced at any time by anyone, for unknown purposes. Forgeries of documents are not necessarily a new invention.
Could you perhaps post a scan of the document, so others could see it and discuss it?


Nick
Not my point, really. I rather want to point out, how weak the evidence is, and how much effort was put to muddy the water for a reason not known to us.
Re the document, mind you, on 25 April there was a massive raid on Berchtesgaden, a coincidence? The document, if authentic, was possibly a sort of deception game. Mind you Mincemeat? That said, about witnesses, they had just enough time to prepare a uniform version on what had happened in the bunker. I recall a conspiracy theory, that Hitler was murdered, and Eva disappeared. Why not? If Hitler refused to escape, and said that all occupants of the bunker will die, I can imagine some solution was to be worked out. Just as a sample.

Another conspiracy theory? How about that. Hitler died on 20 July, but Himmler immediately produced a double. Remains were cremated except some key identification body parts like jaw for possible future use. Nobody realised it is not Hitler because changes of appearance were believed to be shock effect. Then body double was either murdered or disappeared, and jaw was planted with some charred remains to prove Hitler's death.


That said, on a serious note, I came across some evidence of cooperation between SD and NKVD (or other body) as early as late 1943. I am really not sure how to explain it, and how far to the top it went. The fact is, that several figures of Nazi Germany cooperated with the Soviets after 1945.

edwest2 25th May 2022 22:36

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
Franek,

I do not have the equipment to post a scan of the document in question. I believe it to be authentic. On another subject, the Germans were in unofficial contact with the Allies for various reasons. The British received threats, for example.

Ed

Franek Grabowski 26th May 2022 02:48

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
Ed
Perhaps someone else can do that, nevermind.
The view of WWII and associated politics is oversimplified, and there is a lot to be uncovered. Sometimes a dilligent researcher can come across stories that cannot be explained in a simple way.

Alfred.MONZAT 31st May 2022 13:37

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski (Post 319592)
Perhaps someone else can do that, nevermind.

https://www.zupimages.net/up/22/22/1xw1.jpg

Franek Grabowski 3rd June 2022 03:50

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
Hi
Many thanks. I have looked around the web for a similar document signed by Muller. Found this one. Of course, I cannot be sure of its authenticity, but the header is different, and especially the signatue looks different.
Any comments?



https://www.emedals.com/media/catalo...1/m19_4778.jpghttps://www.emedals.com/media/catalo...1/m19_4779.jpg

MW Giles 25th July 2022 22:20

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
It is interesting that as well as Hitler, everyone else on that flight list was still in Berlin after the 26th April and no-one on the list turned up in South America in the 50s

Therefore they somehow found 19 body doubles to take the places of the fugitives

I like a good conspiracy theory but really?

Martin

edwest2 28th July 2022 20:49

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
Martin,

The term "conspiracy theory" has no meaning today. It bypasses the critical thinking part of the brain and involves a Pavlov's dog reaction. You hear the bell and so on.

Documents exist, along with books, that show a large transfer of money and persons from Germany just before and immediately after the end of the war. The FBI has released documents that detail sightings of Hitler and Eva Braun in South America during the time period in question.

MW Giles 29th July 2022 21:54

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
The term "conspiracy theory" has no meaning today. It bypasses the critical thinking part of the brain and involves a Pavlov's dog reaction. You hear the bell and so on.

Indeed, except no amount of careful reasoning will disuade those that have been bitten by the dog from continuing with their conspiracies. There is always an, "Ah, but some unspecified peasant in outer Mongolia is reported to have seen a grumpy dark haired German sounding man with a toothbrush moustache in 1951. The KGB looked into it. Doesn't that prove everything we have been told is a lie."

Well no, it doesn't.

Until someone produces a grave and AH's DNA from somewhere in South America any further discussion is merely nugatory.

Nick Beale 29th July 2022 22:39

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by edwest2 (Post 321506)
The FBI has released documents that detail sightings of Hitler and Eva Braun in South America during the time period in question.

The post-mortem sighting of prominent persons is a recurring feature of human history (Elvis Presley for one). People are reluctant to accept that charismatic figures really are gone. Indeed Charlie Chaplin is supposed to have been spotted worldwide on 12 November 1916 and he was still alive (the phenomenon is fictionalised in “Sunnyside” by Glen David Gold).


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