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-   -   Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962? (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=61959)

TigerTimon 30th April 2022 16:36

Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
Today the 30th of April is the alleged death date of Adolf Hitler.
Recently I conversated with someone who really believe Hitler fled to Argentina. That person gave me a book written by the authors Simon Dunstan and Gerrard Williams. They did a thorough study and also believe the dictator fled to the South-American country.

Do you believe this conspiracy theory to be true? Why or why not?
Attached below is an extract of an interrogation report from the head of the German Armed Forces High Command (via Fold3):

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/data:i...BJRU5ErkJggg==

Steve Coates 30th April 2022 18:21

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
Seriously - do you believe it?

TigerTimon 30th April 2022 23:07

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
No. There is too much cherry-picking of facts in this theory.

Steve Coates 1st May 2022 18:16

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
Completely agree. That Hitler died in 1945 has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt in my mind. I think you've more useful ways to spend your time.

AndyMa 2nd May 2022 14:07

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
I think the other thing is that so many people would have known that it is almost unthinkable that nobody would have broken ranks and spilled the beans at some point.
A bit like the (non)-Lunar landing conspiracy. It would have needed thousands of people to cover it up, none of whom has ever decided to make themselves rich by telling the true story.

FalkeEins 2nd May 2022 15:43

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
..but they did 'break ranks'..it's all in the Dunstan/Williams (fairy) tale. Perhaps the OP might like to read the article at the link. Author Williams even contacted me to point out one or two errors

http://falkeeins.blogspot.com/2011/1...er-distan.html

edwest2 2nd May 2022 21:06

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AndyMa (Post 318976)
I think the other thing is that so many people would have known that it is almost unthinkable that nobody would have broken ranks and spilled the beans at some point.
A bit like the (non)-Lunar landing conspiracy. It would have needed thousands of people to cover it up, none of whom has ever decided to make themselves rich by telling the true story.

A popular fiction regarding things like this is that authors will automatically become rich when publishing such stories. After some decades in book publishing, I have acquired the numbers of books actually sold.
In most cases, a small number of authors make up the bulk of sales for established publishers. I have also seen numbers for one-off books. Again, getting rich, or doing well, is rare and usually not about subject
matter like this.

Nick Beale 6th May 2022 12:10

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FalkeEins (Post 318978)
..but they did 'break ranks'..it's all in the Dunstan/Williams (fairy) tale. Perhaps the OP might like to read the article at the link. Author Williams even contacted me to point out one or two errors

http://falkeeins.blogspot.com/2011/1...er-distan.html

Was that the one where a Ju 52 landed on a street in Berlin (Hohenzollerndamm?) that was barely 2 metres wider than the aircraft's wingspan? And that plane then flew out to land in Magdeburg, despite the place having been in American hands for about two weeks? A lot of fiendish Nazi cunning in play there!

schnellmeyer 6th May 2022 15:44

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
I knew and met Otto Gunsche who was Hitler's adjutant and he was responsible for the burning of Hitler's and Eva's bodies. He told me that Hitler took his own life in the Bunker on April 30.

FalkeEins 6th May 2022 17:50

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Beale (Post 319046)
And that plane then flew out to land in Magdeburg, despite the place having been in American hands for about two weeks? A lot of fiendish Nazi cunning in play there!

indeed! pilot was that well-known 122-victory ace Hptm. Peter Baumgart..
but rather than waste all this forum space, here's a book recommendation, Volker Ulrich's " Eight Days in May", the story of the eight days under a new Führer, Admiral Dönitz. No Luftwaffe content, despite the fact that a lot was still happening in the air..II./JG 6 Doras were still flying sorties on May 5 according to the logbook extracts in that Jet & Prop article about the Gefechtsverband Rudel (IIRC)

https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/319/...241467268.html

Franek Grabowski 21st May 2022 16:06

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
I have reviewed Baumgart file prepared by local security services, but there was nothing really interesting. Baumgart was found not reliable, and his stories of no value.
That said, the funny thing is that the evidence of Hitler's death, as well as some other prominent figures is somewhat inconclusive. Too much disinformation has been spread after the war, and this leaves plenty of room for various conspiracy theories. There is a good question, why such stories were disseminated, and why body evidence was so happily destroyed.

edwest2 22nd May 2022 01:38

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
Franek,

What body evidence? The Russians had what they said was a portion of Hitler's skull on display and what they said was a portion of his jawbone in their archives.

Best,
Ed

Franek Grabowski 23rd May 2022 02:20

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by edwest2 (Post 319417)
Franek,

What body evidence? The Russians had what they said was a portion of Hitler's skull on display and what they said was a portion of his jawbone in their archives.

Best,
Ed


The skull piece is said to belong to an unknown woman, while there is reputedly a piece of jawbone or a teeth, and some blood samples. AFAIK the only positive identification comes from a comparison of a teeth to an x-ray of Hitler's jaw. No full profile DNA test and genealogical cross check. Otherwise, how can you prove that small peice of bone was recovered in Berlin, indeed.
Same situation in other cases, Bormann, Hess, Himmler. Reputedly forensic evidence was gathered, and the bodies destroyed, so you cannot prove that they died in the described circumstances, nor that those were their bodies indeed. It is really plenty of room for a foul play.
To be clear, I do not claim that Hitler and his gang lived ever after at a rancho in Texas, where they were joined by Elvis. I merely note, that the evidence gathered is quite weak, and may lead to some conspiracy theories.
In fact, I am most intrigued as to why Soviets did not reveal the fact that they have found Hitler's body or who was behind of some conspiracy theories, and what was the purpose of disseminating them. Such things do not happen without a reason.

Nick Beale 23rd May 2022 09:55

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
Didn’t they DNA-match remains found near the former Lehrter Bahnhof long after the war with living relatives of Bormann?

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11296895/

Franek Grabowski 23rd May 2022 22:12

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Beale (Post 319454)
Didn’t they DNA-match remains found near the former Lehrter Bahnhof long after the war with living relatives of Bormann?

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11296895/

They claim so, indeed, but as remains were then cremated, the test cannot be repeated, and DNA tests are prone for contamination and in case of older type of testing - errors. Great fuel for conspiracy theories.

edwest2 24th May 2022 02:42

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
Franek,


So you are saying the Soviets found Hitler's body and perhaps have other evidence but this is not conclusive? That the skull fragment they had on display being
found to be from an unidentified woman indicates to me that the Soviets were not being truthful. In 1963, Marshal Zhukov said: “We have found no body that could be Hitler's."

Either way, it appears the Soviets are telling two stories at minimum.

Franek Grabowski 24th May 2022 15:00

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
Ed
Soviets lied from the beginning, it was Empire of Lie, so it is not surprising that there was so much mess with Hitler's body. Reputedly they found some fakes, then the proper one, but not admitted to it for years, I think until late 1960s. Then provided fake information about the reason of death.
They then claim that all remains were destroyed on Andropov's order in 1970, except jawbone parts. Reputedly those confirm it is Hitler, because of X-Ray images, but again, with so many lies, how it could be proven they were found in 1945 or that available X-Rays are the ones of Hitler? How about the story that Hitler was murdered in the bunker, while Eva happilly escaped?
The death of Hitler was confirmed in testimonies against the German court. Did they tell the truth or not? Or, if they murdered Hitler, were they then blackmailed by Soviets?
And how about the claims, that through the war Hitler was so much doped, that he did not control anything, this based on his medical records?
The funny thing is, that the people rejecting conspiracy theories forget how thin the evidence of his death is. Now, we can assume that given his age, he is dead anyway, but as a pop culture icon he is very much alive and well. Perhaps the most well known person in the modern history.
Irony?

edwest2 24th May 2022 18:49

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
Franek,

I have seen a published photo of a Counter-Intelligence Corps officer crouching by the couch where Hitler allegedly shot himself. There is a stain on the fabric at the top back.

A "Special Flight" order was found among the files of Heinrich Müller, head of the Gestapo, dated 20 April 1945. The names of Hitler and Eva Braun were among the passenger list. After the war,
the FBI received reports of sightings of Hitler and Eva Braun in South America. So the Americans were in on it too?

Franek Grabowski 25th May 2022 04:10

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
Ed
For years Soviets claimed that Hitler did not shot himself. Then in 1990s I think, they revealed to have a part of Hitler's skull, Following examination, it was found to be too thin to be male's one.
The photo may suggest that someone was shot, but as long as we cannot examine blood sample, and make a full profile DNA test, we cannot be sure, to whom it belonged.
Re the alleged flight manifest, I understand that its authenticity has not been verified and the original document never surfaced. Plenty of fakes are circulating around, so I am not quite surprised.
Also, I am not surprised with reports of sightings of Hitler or other officials. There are people adamant that they saw Elvis recently. There are similar looking people or body doubles. I guess everyone had a situation where he mistook someone for someone else.
But where is the point?
There are basically two questions. What really had happened and who and why was disseminating false information. Why Soviets withheld information about finding Hitler's body and why some senior German officials claimed Muller was alive. I can imagine a journalist to make some lines in a silly season, but if such gossip comes from officials or is inspired by them, then, there must be some purpose in it.
I do not have answers for both.

edwest2 25th May 2022 18:07

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
Franek,

I appreciate your comments. Regarding the 'special flight,' there is a facsimile reproduction of the relevant document in the book, KG 200 - The Luftwaffe's Most Secret Unit by Geoffrey J. Thomas and Barry Ketley, on page 166.

Best,
Ed

Nick Beale 25th May 2022 19:11

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by edwest2 (Post 319561)
Franek,

I appreciate your comments. Regarding the 'special flight,' there is a facsimile reproduction of the relevant document in the book, KG 200 - The Luftwaffe's Most Secret Unit by Geoffrey J. Thomas and Barry Ketley, on page 166.

Best,
Ed

That document, dated 20 April, talks of him leaving Hörsching on the 26th, so it's referring to something that hasn't happened at the time of writing. Does anyone seriously dispute that Hitler was still in Berlin after 26 April? Endless witnesses have descirbed seeing him in the bunker after that date.

Franek Grabowski 25th May 2022 21:37

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
Ed
Such a document could have been produced at any time by anyone, for unknown purposes. Forgeries of documents are not necessarily a new invention.
Could you perhaps post a scan of the document, so others could see it and discuss it?


Nick
Not my point, really. I rather want to point out, how weak the evidence is, and how much effort was put to muddy the water for a reason not known to us.
Re the document, mind you, on 25 April there was a massive raid on Berchtesgaden, a coincidence? The document, if authentic, was possibly a sort of deception game. Mind you Mincemeat? That said, about witnesses, they had just enough time to prepare a uniform version on what had happened in the bunker. I recall a conspiracy theory, that Hitler was murdered, and Eva disappeared. Why not? If Hitler refused to escape, and said that all occupants of the bunker will die, I can imagine some solution was to be worked out. Just as a sample.

Another conspiracy theory? How about that. Hitler died on 20 July, but Himmler immediately produced a double. Remains were cremated except some key identification body parts like jaw for possible future use. Nobody realised it is not Hitler because changes of appearance were believed to be shock effect. Then body double was either murdered or disappeared, and jaw was planted with some charred remains to prove Hitler's death.


That said, on a serious note, I came across some evidence of cooperation between SD and NKVD (or other body) as early as late 1943. I am really not sure how to explain it, and how far to the top it went. The fact is, that several figures of Nazi Germany cooperated with the Soviets after 1945.

edwest2 25th May 2022 22:36

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
Franek,

I do not have the equipment to post a scan of the document in question. I believe it to be authentic. On another subject, the Germans were in unofficial contact with the Allies for various reasons. The British received threats, for example.

Ed

Franek Grabowski 26th May 2022 02:48

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
Ed
Perhaps someone else can do that, nevermind.
The view of WWII and associated politics is oversimplified, and there is a lot to be uncovered. Sometimes a dilligent researcher can come across stories that cannot be explained in a simple way.

Alfred.MONZAT 31st May 2022 13:37

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski (Post 319592)
Perhaps someone else can do that, nevermind.

https://www.zupimages.net/up/22/22/1xw1.jpg

Franek Grabowski 3rd June 2022 03:50

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
Hi
Many thanks. I have looked around the web for a similar document signed by Muller. Found this one. Of course, I cannot be sure of its authenticity, but the header is different, and especially the signatue looks different.
Any comments?



https://www.emedals.com/media/catalo...1/m19_4778.jpghttps://www.emedals.com/media/catalo...1/m19_4779.jpg

MW Giles 25th July 2022 22:20

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
It is interesting that as well as Hitler, everyone else on that flight list was still in Berlin after the 26th April and no-one on the list turned up in South America in the 50s

Therefore they somehow found 19 body doubles to take the places of the fugitives

I like a good conspiracy theory but really?

Martin

edwest2 28th July 2022 20:49

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
Martin,

The term "conspiracy theory" has no meaning today. It bypasses the critical thinking part of the brain and involves a Pavlov's dog reaction. You hear the bell and so on.

Documents exist, along with books, that show a large transfer of money and persons from Germany just before and immediately after the end of the war. The FBI has released documents that detail sightings of Hitler and Eva Braun in South America during the time period in question.

MW Giles 29th July 2022 21:54

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
The term "conspiracy theory" has no meaning today. It bypasses the critical thinking part of the brain and involves a Pavlov's dog reaction. You hear the bell and so on.

Indeed, except no amount of careful reasoning will disuade those that have been bitten by the dog from continuing with their conspiracies. There is always an, "Ah, but some unspecified peasant in outer Mongolia is reported to have seen a grumpy dark haired German sounding man with a toothbrush moustache in 1951. The KGB looked into it. Doesn't that prove everything we have been told is a lie."

Well no, it doesn't.

Until someone produces a grave and AH's DNA from somewhere in South America any further discussion is merely nugatory.

Nick Beale 29th July 2022 22:39

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by edwest2 (Post 321506)
The FBI has released documents that detail sightings of Hitler and Eva Braun in South America during the time period in question.

The post-mortem sighting of prominent persons is a recurring feature of human history (Elvis Presley for one). People are reluctant to accept that charismatic figures really are gone. Indeed Charlie Chaplin is supposed to have been spotted worldwide on 12 November 1916 and he was still alive (the phenomenon is fictionalised in “Sunnyside” by Glen David Gold).

edwest2 29th July 2022 22:50

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
Seeing people is one thing but getting the FBI to accept such reports is another. There is a penalty for filing a false report with the police in the U.S. The FBI had a secret presence in South America during the war. The Special Intelligence Service was concerned with German influence in South America and gathering intelligence regarding certain countries and individuals.


See: The Origins of FBI Counterintelligence by Raymond J. Batvinis.

Franek Grabowski 2nd August 2022 16:26

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
Well, there was no information of Hitler being dead at the time, and it is not fully confirmed still, so no wonder that there were searches for him. Still, such observations of people looking alike, and documents of dubious authenticity are not evidence.

edwest2 2nd August 2022 21:34

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
Franek,

Have you seen any of the FBI reports? These documents convey precise information, not speculation. Had this been an open and shut case, the FBI would not have accepted such reports since Hitler and Eva Braun were both dead.

Franek Grabowski 3rd August 2022 16:33

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
I think so. Back at the time there was no, I repeat no information about Hitler's fate. There are many reports of the period, which were then considered serious, but now they are just ridiculous.
If I would have to follow conspiracy theories, I would rather expect Hitler being finished by his men, perhaps Himmler or Goering gang.

edwest2 3rd August 2022 18:30

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
Franek,

You are engaging in useless speculation.

richdlc 3rd August 2022 18:51

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
is this nonsense still going?

Leendert 4th August 2022 17:11

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
We can safely assume that Hitler is dead, either in 1945 as widely accepted or, notwithstanding all conspiracy theories, at a later date simply of old age.

Regards,
Leendert

edwest2 5th August 2022 01:35

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
As I wrote, the term 'conspiracy theory' has no meaning. The FBI accepted reports about two people who, according to widespread stories, were dead. Why would they do that? An FBI document dated September 1, 1944 indicates that Hitler could flee to Argentina if he lost the war.

Franek Grabowski 6th August 2022 03:58

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
Gosh, have you read those reports? Someone met someone in a Hollywod bar, and the person told that Hitler is in Argentina. I liked the comment, that the best place for Hitler to hide is New York City, where he could merge without trace.

edwest2 7th August 2022 02:02

Re: Death of Hitler - 1945 or 1962?
 
Franek,

I've read the reports, with titles like "Hitler and Eva Braun, Information Concerning"

One report details a man going to a particular location in South America. This town is populated almost entirely by Germans. He spots Hitler and Eva Braun and asks someone who works there about this. He is told to say noting further or his life might be in danger.

People are generally unaware of the German population in South America.


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