VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.
 

From Oleg Rastrenin's book:

During attacks on Luftwaffe airfields on 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943 VVS lost (KiA, MiA, WiA, DfW, KiFA):

103 Il-2 - 86 pilots and 70 gunners;
28 A-20 and Pe-2 - 24 pilots, 22 bombardiers, and 28 gunners;
72 fighters - 68 pilots.

Short description of 10 june 1943 air raid:

10 june, 2 attacks:

1 raid to attack airfields Kharkov and Mikoyanovka (~4:15)

1 raid to attack airfields Sescha(20:20-20:40)

I will briefly describe raid to Sescha.
1st wave of:

12 x Il-2 (leader Kap. V.Rubtzov, 312 shap) with close escort of 6 x Yak-1 (leader Maj. N.Tzagojko, 122 iap)
11 x Il-2 (leader Kap. K.Brekhov, 62 shap) with close escort of 8 x Yak-7B (leader Kap. Sibirtzev, 172 iap)
Both groups with fighter sweep of:
4 x Yak-1 (St.Lt. R.Seroglazov, 162 iap)
4 x La-5 (Kap. N.Spiridenko, 49 iap)
7 x Yak-1 (St.Lt. Kisilev, 172 iap)

2nd wave consist of:
9 x Pe-2 (2 bap) with close escort of 6 x La-5 (Maj. Alifanov, 263 iap)
9 x Pe-2 (38 bap) with close escort of 6 x La-5 (Kap. Rakitin, 263 iap)
9 x Pe-2 (Maj.Ageyev, 6 bap) with close escort of 6 x La-5 (Maj. Kashirkin, 522 iap)
9 x Pe-2 (St.Lt. Kuznetzov, 130 bap) with close escort of 6 x La-5 (Maj. Gribok, 522 iap)

Fighter sweep:
15 x La-5 (2 giap).
--------------------------
Road to target:

no enemy fighters, weak AAA fire. No claims and losses.

--------------------------
Over the target:

Result of attack on Sescha airfield:
312 shap claimed: 15 2 x Flak destroyed, 15 large explosions;
62 shap: destroyed ~10 and damaged ~5-7 enemy aircrafts, 1 house destroyed, 5 explosions;
Pe-2's of 204 bad: many explosions on the airfield, all airfield covered with heavy smoke.

Over tha target Il-2 wave was intercepted by large group of Fw190's.

Losses:
Il-2 (Ml.Lt. A.Kuznetzov, 312 shap) shot down by AAA, crashed in airfield area;
Il-2 (St.Lt. Alferov, 312 shap) damaged by AAA, reached his base airfield and emlanded;
Il-2 (Ml.Lt. Mochalov, 312 shap)damaged by AAA, reached his base airfield and emlanded;

---------------------
Road from target to home bases:

Groups of fighters had splittered and got hard combat with large groups of enemy fighters. Both Il-2 and Pe-2 waves came under attack of Fw190 groups.

Losses:
Il-2 (Ml.Lt. Ivliyev, 312 shap) heavy damaged by Fw190, reached his base airfield and emlanded;
Il-2 (Ml.Lt. Komarovsky, 312 shap) heavy damaged by Fw190, reached his base airfield and emlanded;
Il-2 (Ml.Lt. Anufriyev, 62 shap) heavy damaged by Fw190, reached his base airfield and emlanded;
Il-2 (Ml.Lt. Popov, 62 shap) heavy damaged by Fw190, reached his base airfield and emlanded;
Pe-2 (Maj. I.Ageyev, 6 bap), shot down by enemy fighers in area of Sescha;
Pe-2 (Ml.Lt. Volkov, 6 bap), shot down by enemy fighers in area of Sescha;
Pe-2 (Ml.Lt. Shpagin, 6 bap), shot down by enemy fighers in area of Sescha;
Pe-2 (Ml.Lt. Stepchak, 6 bap), shot down by enemy fighers in area of Sescha;
Pe-2 (Ml.Lt. Yemeljanov, 6 bap), shot down by enemy fighers in area of Sescha;
Pe-2 (Ml.Lt. Shibanov, 6 bap), shot down by enemy fighers in area of Sescha;
Pe-2 (Ml.Lt. Ignatjev, 6 bap), shot down by enemy fighers in area of Sescha;
Pe-2 (Ml.Lt. Nikitin, 6 bap), shot down by enemy fighers in area of Sescha;
Pe-2 (Ml.Lt. Smol'sky, 6 bap), shot down by enemy fighers in area of Sescha;
La-5 (Lt. Oparin, 522 iap) shot down by enemy fighters during escort of Pe-2 of 6 bap, Sescha area;
La-5 (Ml.Lt. Ishimsky, 522 iap) shot down by enemy fighters during escort of Pe-2 of 6 bap, Sescha area;
Yak-1 (Maj.Tzagojko, 122 iap) damaged by Fw190, bellylanded behind enemy lines;
Yak-1 (Ml.Lt. Nepokrytov, 122 iap) shot down by Fw190,did not returned from combat mission;
Yak-1 (St. Shelukha, 162 iap) shot down by Fw190, did not returned from combat mission;
La-5 (St.Lt. Pankin, 2 giap) did not returned from combat mission by unknown reason;

Claims:

Fw190 shot down by La-5 (Kap.Rakitin, 263 iap), crashed in area of Krasny Oktyabr';
Fw190 shot down by La-5 (Ml.Lt. Orlov, 263 iap), crashed in area of Krasny Oktyabr';
Fw190 (shared) shot down by pair of La-5 (Maj.Alifanov, Ltn. Sapegin, 263 iap), crashed in Sescha area;
Fw190 (shared) shot down by pair of La-5 (Kap.Popov, Ml.Lt. Chernushevich, 263 iap), crashed in area of Zhebovo.
---------------

If interested in full information, let me know - use PM. I have full claims losses of that operations.

Best wishes!

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.
 

And another (of 2) raid on 10 june 1943.

1 raid to attack airfields Kharkov and Mikoyanovka (~4:15)

12 x Il-2 (leader Yankin, 66 shap) with close escort of 12 x La-5 (leader Kap. Matviyenko, 297 iap)
12 x Il-2 (leader Kozlenko, 673 shap), 12 x Il-2 (leader Stepanov, 800 shap), 12 x Il-2 (leader Chernetzov, 820 shap) with escort of totally 36 fighters from 4 iak.

Fighter sweep: 29 La-5, task to block Rogan' airfield.
--------------------------
Road to target:

no enemy fighters, weak AAA fire. No claims and losses.
--------------------------

Over the target:
Kharkov airfield - 66 shap+673 shap: destr. ~35 aircrafts, 4 x Flak, 1 hangar, 1 building, 17 explosions.

Makoyanovka airfield - 800 shap + 820 shap: 3 x Flak, 5 x Bf109, 9 cars, 2 ammodepots.
5 x Il-2 (800 shap & 820 shap) were damaged by AAA fire, returned to base.

---------------------
Road from target to home bases:

Groups was intercepted by large group of Bf109's.

Losses:
Il-2 (Ml.Lt. Odarchenko, 820 shap) shot down by Bf109, crashed at area Bol'shiye Baiki;
Il-2 (Ml.Lt. Levchenko, 66 shap) shot down by Bf109, MiA;
Il-2 (Ml.Lt. Kindarjan, 66 shap) shot down by Bf109, crashed at area Bely Kolodetz;

Claims:
Bf109 shot down by La-5 (Kap. Korol'kov, 297 iap), crashed near village Ziborivka.

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.
 

8 june 1943.

2 air raids of 15 VA and 1 VA.
15 VA: to Orel-Central, Mezenka, Kuliki, Lezhenka (Prokurovka) at 20:00 - 20:05;
1 VA : Sescha 20:20 - 20:25.

I'll describe 15 VA raid, the most bloodly.

6 x Il-2 (leader Kap. Smirnov, 614 shap), 6 x Il-2 (leader Kap. Kovgan, 614 shap) with close escort of 9 x La-5 of 50 iap;

Fighter sweep:

6 x Yak-1 (leader St.Lt. Golovin, 65 giap) to block and strafe attack airfield Mezenka;
8 x La-5 (Podp. Ivanov, 63 giap) to block airfield Kuliki;
8 x Yak-7B (leader St.Lt. Manoshin, 64 giap) to block airfield Lezhenka (Prokurovka);

--------------------------
Road to target:

Group of 63 giap was intercepted by 10-12 Fw190 + Bf109 in area of Kuliki airfield.
Claims:
Fw190 shot down by La-5 (Serj. Sudoshkin, 63 giap), crashed in area of Kuliki airfield;
Losses:
La-5 (Ml.Lt. Kudryanov, 63 giap) shot down by enemy fighters, did not return from combat mission;
La-5 (Ml.Lt. Valentey, 63 giap) shot down by enemy fighters, did not return from combat mission;

Group of 65 giap was intercepted by group of 4 Fw190 and 2 Bf109 in area of Orel-GVF.
Claims:
Fw190 shot down by Yak-1 (Kap. Kubarev, 65 giap), crashed in 10 km West from airfield Orel-GVF;
Fw190 shot down by Yak-1 (Ml.Lt. Popov, 65 giap), crashed near of Yuzhnaya Sloboda, area of Orel;
Losses:
Yak-1 (Ml.Lt. Lapshenkov, 65 giap) shot down by enemy fighters, did not return from combat mission to Orel area;
Yak-1 (Lt. Zhukov, 65 giap) shot down by enemy fighters, did not return from combat mission to Orel area;

Group of 64 giap was intercepted by group of 4 Fw190 and 4 Bf109 in area of Lezhenki.
Claims:
Fw190 shot down by Yak-7B (Ml.Lt. Alekseyev, 64 giap), crashed in area of Selivanovo;
Bf109 shot down by Yak-7B (St.Lt. Manoshin, 64 giap), crashed in area of airfield Lezhenki;
Losses:
Yak-7B (Ml.Lt. Matzina, 64 giap) shot down by enemy fighters, did not return from combat mission to Lezhenki airfield;
Yak-7B (Lt. Zaikin, 64 giap) shot down by enemy fighters, did not return from combat mission to Lezhenki airfield;
Yak-7B (Ml.Lt. Drozd, 64 giap) shot down by enemy fighters, did not return from combat mission to Lezhenki airfield;

--------------------------
Over the target:

Lezhenka airfield (65 giap): 5 aircrafts destroyed on earth.
Claims:
Fw190 shot down by Yak-1 (St.Lt. Koventzov, 65 giap), crashed in South-East from Mtzensk;

Orel-GVF: result of strike is not recognised, in case of full group of 12 Il-2 did not returned from combat mission. Escort fighters saw 7 - 10 explosions on airfield after Il-2 strike.

---------------------
Road from target to home bases:
Because of heaviest AAA fire escort of 50 iap climbed up and lost group of Il-2, then were intercepted by group of Fw190.
Claims:
Fw190 shot down by La-5 of 50 iap, crashed in Orel area;
Fw190 shot down by La-5 of 50 iap, crashed in Orel area;
Fw190 shot down by La-5 of 50 iap, crashed in Orel area;
Fw190 shot down by La-5 of 50 iap, crashed in Orel area;
Losses:
La-5 (Ml.Lt. Korotkikh, 50 iap) shot down by Fw190, crashed in area Orel-Mtzensk;
La-5 (Ml.Lt. Mikhailov, 50 iap) shot down by Fw190, crashed in area Orel-Mtzensk;
La-5 (Serj. Zhuravlev, 50 iap) shot down by Fw190, crashed in area Orel-Mtzensk;
La-5 (Ml.Lt. Zhuchkov, 50 iap) heavy damaged by Fw190, crashed on landing on his airfield;

In that moment group of Il-2 came under attack of large group of Fw190.
Losses:
Il-2 (Kap. A.Smirnov, 614 shap) shot down by enemy fighters, Orel-Mtzensk area;
Il-2 (Kap. P.Astapenko, 614 shap) shot down by enemy fighters, Orel-Mtzensk area;
Il-2 (Ml.Lt. P.Varapayev, 614 shap) shot down by enemy fighters, Orel-Mtzensk area;
Il-2 (Ml.Lt. A.Gamynin, 614 shap) shot down by enemy fighters, Orel-Mtzensk area;
Il-2 (Kap. A.Kovgan, 614 shap) shot down by enemy fighters, Orel-Mtzensk area;
Il-2 (Lt. I.Kosmachev, 614 shap) shot down by enemy fighters, Orel-Mtzensk area;
Il-2 (Ml.Lt. V.Kramar, 614 shap) shot down by enemy fighters, Orel-Mtzensk area;
Il-2 (Ml.Lt. N.Chebotaryov, 614 shap) shot down by enemy fighters, Orel-Mtzensk area;
Il-2 (St.Serj. E.Saburov, 614 shap) shot down by enemy fighters, Orel-Mtzensk area;
Il-2 (Serj. G.Sorokin, 614 shap) shot down by enemy fighters, Orel-Mtzensk area;
Il-2 (Ml.Lt. G.Maltzev, 614 shap) shot down by enemy fighters, Orel-Mtzensk area;
Il-2 (Ml.Lt. A.Rezinkin, 614 shap) shot down by enemy fighters, Orel-Mtzensk area;

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.
 

Evgeny,
Did you mean the date for post#2 to be 10Jun43 instead of 10Jul43? Also is all this info from Oleg Rastrenin's book "Split Sky. May-June of 1943" (Translated version of title)? Great stuff!

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.
 

Yes, Nokose. Little typo :)

All this info is a BRIEF info from that book. Book contains more and more very interesting stuff.

I post this info here to let all who interested to confirm/unconfirm VVS and Luftwaffe claims and losses.

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.
 

Claimanalysis:

Concerning 8.6.1943 raid to Secha:
JG51-claims
12-24IL-2 claimed vs. 12 admitted
18-31 fighter vs. 11 admitted
min numbers for timeframe, max numbers include claims w/o daytime

Concerning 10.6.1943 raid to Secha:
Claims by JG51:
8-12 Pe-2 claimed vs. 9 admitted by VVS
31-34 IL-2 claimed vs. 7 admitted by VVS (from them 3 flak)
8-13 fighter claimed vs. 6 admitted by VS
Minimum numbers for claim-times between 19:13 and 19:49, max numbers incl. claims w/o daytime
Additionally 2 IL-2 claims by Hauptmann Hermann, 3./ZG1

Concerning 10.6.1943 raid to Charkov:
Claims by II./JG3:
3 IL-2 claimed vs. 3 admitted by VVS
3 LaGG5 claimed vs. nul admitted by VVS
in area 61 6xx

PS: Might be corrected later on...

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.
 

It is noted in book:

" 3 Il-2 came under attack of enemy fighter UNKNOWN type".

It could be because VVS fighter pilots sayd directly Fw190 or Bf109. When they may saw Bf110, they may note it in combat report as "enemy fighter". Later, in high Staff, "enemy fighter" could be changed to "enemy fighter, type unknown".

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.
 

Hptm Hermann 3/ZG1 shows on Tony Woods list Il-2 m.b. [Il-4] 19:25 and Il-4 19:33. Oblt Hermann Luecke 9/JG51 claims four Il-4 from 19:16-19:25. Il-4 is a two motor bomber. Does anyone have losses for JG51 for the claims made by the VVS?

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.
 

And to finish a picture of bloodly 8 june 1943:

8 june 1943.

2 air raids of 15 VA and 1 VA.

1 VA : Sescha 20:20 - 20:25.
1st wave:
6 x Il-2 (leader Maj. M.Bondarenko, 198 shap) with close escort of 6 x Yak-1 (leader Kap. Gugnin, 122 iap);
6 x Il-2 (leader Kap. V.Malinkin, 198 shap), 5 x La-5 (49 iap);
1 x Il-2 (leader Kap. Gubanov, 62 shap) with escort of 5 x Yak-7 (172 iap. Kap.Sibirtzev), 6 x Yak-1 (162 iap) and 5 x Yak-1 (172 iap);
2nd wave:
9 x Pe-2 (2 bap), 9 x Pe-2 (261 bap), 8 x Pe-2 (bap) with escort of 42 x La-5 (2 giap, 263 iap, 522 iap)

--------------------------
Road to target:

In the area of Dolgoye group was intercepted by 6 x Fw190.

Claims:
Fw190 was shot down by Yak-1 (Kap. N.Gugnin, 122 iap), crashed in area of Dolgoye;

--------------------------
Over the target:
Groups of Il-2 were intercepted by large groups of Bf109 and Fw190's.

Losses:
La-5 (Ml.Lt. Stadnichuk, 522 iap) was shot down by AAA, crashed at Bryn' area.

Sescha airfield:
198 shap: ~ 20 aircrafts destroyed, damaged ~ 15, 3 large explosions (thought fuel and ammo depots);
2 bap, 261 bap: destroye d5 aircrafts, several buildings, 3 explosions.

---------------------
Road from target to home bases:

After attack both groups came under attack of another group of Fw190 (1st two groups of Fw190's fought against escort fighters to manage them out of Il-2's and Pe-2's). Attacks followed from Sescha to frontline and even further.

Claims:
Fw190 shot down by Il-2 gunner (crew of leader of all formation Maj. M.Bondarenko, 198 shap), crashed in area Zagorje, E from Rekovichi;
Fw190 shot down by Il-2 (Kap. Mailinkin, 198 shap), crashed in swamp near Sescha;
Fw190 shot down by Yak-1 (Kap. Gugnin, 122 iap), crashed near Sescha airfield;
Fw190 shot down by Yak-1 (Ml.Lt. Bushkov, 122 iap), crashed near Sescha airfield;
Fw190 shot down by Yak-7 (Kap. Sibirtzev, 172 iap), crashed near Sescha airfield;
Fw190 shot down by La-5 (Maj. Alifanov, 263 iap), crashed 8 kms NW Sescha airfield;
Fw190 shot down by La-5 (Ml.Lt. Sapegin, 263 iap), crashed 12 kms NW Sescha airfield;
Fw190 shot down by La-5 (Kap. Popov, 263 iap), crashed 25 kms NE Sescha airfield;
Fw190 shot down by La-5 (Lt. Kosolapov, 2 giap), crashed 6 kms SE Sel'tzo;
Fw190 shot down by Pe-2 gunners, (crew of Lt. Vorobjov, 261 bap), crashed near Sescha airfield;

Losses:
Pe-2 (Ml.Lt. Zakharchenko, 2 bap), damaged by enemy fighers, crashed on landing;
Pe-2 (Kap. Fedchenko, 2 bap), damaged by enemy fighers, crashed on landing;
Pe-2 (Maj. Petrov, 261 bap), damaged by enemy fighers, crashed on landing;
Pe-2 (Serj. Struchkov, 261 bap), shot down by enemy fighers, failed to return from combat mission in area on Sescha;
Pe-2 (Serj. Yerotzky, 261 bap), shot down by enemy fighers, failed to return from combat mission in area on Sescha;
Il-2 (Maj. M.Bondarenko, 198 shap) damaged by enemy fighters at Sescha-Ludinovka, could reach territory and emlanded;
Il-2 (Ml.Lt. Petrov, 198 shap) damaged by Fw190, could reach his airfield emlanded;
Il-2 (Ml.Lt. Zinovsky, 198 shap) damaged by Fw190, could reach territory and emlanded at airfield Zhelezniki;
Il-2 (Ml.Lt. Zakharov, 198 shap) damaged by Fw190, could reach territory and emlanded at airfield Ostrova;
Il-2 (Lt. Drozdov, 198 shap) damaged by Fw190, could reach territory and emlanded 15km SW Medyn';
La-5 (Starsh. Smolyanov, 49 iap) damaged by enemy fighters, emlanded at airfield Ostrova;
Yak-1 (St.Lt. Sychev, 162 iap) damaged by enemy fighters, emlanded at airfield Dvoyevka;
Yak-1 (St.Lt. Vinokurov, 122 iap) failed to return on combat mission.
Yak-1 (St.Lt. Minarsky, 162 iap) failed to return on combat mission.

"Il-4" missidentification of I./ZG 1 was discussed already.

BTW: fates of Hptm. W.Hermann and Kap. V.Malinkin (leader of 2nd group of 198 shap in that day) will cross a bit later, on 13 july 1943. In crazy furball of 4 Il-2, leaded by squadron leader of 1st squadron of 198 shap Kap. Malinkin and 12 Bf110G-2 from Stab./ZG 1, Stab I./ZG 1 and 1./ZG 1 Kap. Malinkin was shot down and killed by Wilfried Hermann. Wingman of Malinkin, further Il-2 expert and twice Hero of Soviet Union Lt. Efimov shot down Comodore ZG 1 J.Blechschmitt. Malinkin had at that time 5 enemy fighters at his score. In Tony Woods lists claim of Hermann on 13 july listed as "Il-4". It is just mean "Il-2 new (with gunner) modification", because to midsummer 1943 not all of Il-2's had gunners.

Good question :)

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.
 

Nokose, there are ca. 300 IL-4, -5 and -7 in that list, all in 1943. I personally interprete these as IL-2m.H. (with reargunner).
Reasons:
1) There were names like this given by Luftwaffe for IL2-2seater
2) Nearly all of these claims are at altitudes <1.000m. And I am sure Soviets would NOT use IL-4 so low.
3) IL-4 was mostly used in NBAPs (Night Bombers)

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.
 

Yes, yogybär, that is what I talking about, directly.

Typo? Do You mean "Il-4 so low"?

Actually, Il-4 (with DB-3F) WERE used in mid summer, july-august as DAY bomber, during Kursk battle. But suffered great losses, and trasferred to night-only actions.

Genlmen - lets try to confirm/unconfirm JG 51 losses in air and Luftwaffe losses on the ground by Il-2 and Pe-2 attacks. Any ideas what geschwader could suffer losses on that day? 8 june, 10 june?

8 June 1943
 

Hello guys

First, a huge thank you to Evgeny for posting this information. It is great to have this information regarding Russian operations on the Eastern Front. The only thing that I can add in regards to JG 51 losses on either day is this quote from Weal's JG 51 book: "One report claims that the Focke-Wulfs destroyed 51 enemy machines without loss on 8 June!" Please note that Weal is not always reliable according to what I have read but hopefully someone with access to a JG 51 loss list can add to or correct this information. Concerning the Il-4, I too have seen the Il-2 identified as Il-5 and Il-7, particularly by JG 52, but I have my doubts that this designation would have been used for anything but a twin-engined bomber in the majority of instances. Just my two cents. Concerning the raids, we already know that IV. and 15.(span)/JG 51 engaged the raid to Sescha and II./JG 3 engaged the raid to Kharkov and Mikoyanovka on 10 June, but has anyone attempted as of yet to sort out the 8 June raids?

Horrido!

Leo

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.
 

From Tony Woods:

jan - june 1943 claimed:
198 x Il-2 (actually Il-2 one seater & twoseater)
41 x Il-2 m.H. (correctly identified, Il-2 twoseater)
23 x Il-4 (actually Il-2 twoseater)
46 x Il-5 (actually Il-2 twoseater)
40 x Il-7 (actually Il-2 twoseater)

40 x DB-3 (actually DB-3F and Il-4 two engine bombers)

jul - dec 1943 claimed:
1027 x Il-2 (actually Il-2 one seater & twoseater)
1054 x Il-2 m.H. (correctly identified, Il-2 twoseater)
118 x Il-4 (actually Il-2 twoseater)
62 x Il-5 (actually Il-2 twoseater)
67 x Il-7 (actually Il-2 twoseater)

126 x DB-3 (actually DB-3F and Il-4 two engine bombers)

From O.Rastrenin "Il-2" monography:

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.
 

Hi Evgeny,

Thank you very much for posting the data.

Is there any chance you could post up similar data for the VVS attacks on 6-8May43.

Best Regards

Andy Fletcher

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.
 

Yes, a bit later.

There is a big difference between those operations.

6-8 may it was many small raids, to 10 or more airfields in each under attack.

8 - 10 june only few airfields were under attack, but attack groups of VVS were large.

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.
 

Excellent, look forward to it.

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.
 

I found this in Jagdgeschwader 3 "Udet" in WW2 by Jochen Prien and Gerhard Stemmer. It stated in the losses for 08Jun43 5./JG3 Obgefr. Heinz Welsch (MIA) Air combat LaGG-3, 20 km west of Belgorod Bf-109G-4 Wkr. 14 858 and II/JG3 engine trouble, belly landing south of Belgorod, 35%. He stated in that Welsch was escorting Ju-87 when he was shot down by La-5's.

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.
 

Hi Evgeny,

Fantastic info. Thank you.
If possible, please keep posting.

Best Regards
Marco

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.
 

I is the only what I found.

8 june 1943

FW190A-3, 5327, Oblt. Alejander Perez Gonzales, 15.(sp)/JG 51, KIA on 8.6.43 due to enemy fighters. Pl.Qu. 34413, 100%

Bf 109G-4, 15199, II./JG 3, Bauchlandung on 8.6.43 due to engine damage. Pilot O.K.SW of Bjelgorod. 35%.

Bf 109G-4, 14858, Gefr. Heinz Welsch,5./JG 3, schwarz 2 + -, MIA on 8.6.43, cause unknown. Pl.Qu. 61/12, 100%

On earth:
He111H-16, 8206, II./KG 55, Bombenwurf on 8.6.43.Fl.Pl. Seschtschinskaja 100%
He111H-16, 160415, II./KG 55, Bombenwurf on 8.6.43. Fl.Pl. Seschtschinskaja, 10%
He111H-16, 8508, II./KG 55, Bombenwurf on 8.6.43. Fl.Pl. Seschtschinskaja 10%
He111H-6, 4868, II./KG 55, Bombenwurf on 8.6.43. Fl.Pl. Seschtschinskaja 20%

10 june 1943.

Fw 190F-3, 70037, 1./Sch.G.1, Crash landing on 10.6.43., Fl.Pl.Dnepropetrowsk, 35%.

Any supplimental ground claims confirmed?

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.
 

6 may 1943:

1 VA raids:

1 - Raid to attack airfields Shatalovo and Borovskoye(~4:30)
2 - Raid to attack airfield Borovskoye (19:20-19:25)
3 - Raid to attack airfield Sescha (5:30-5:45)
4 - Raid to attack airfield Bryansk (5:17-5:37)
5 - Raid to attack airfield Lubinka (~12:00)
6 - Raid to attack airfield Lubinka (~17:00)
7 - Raid to attack airfield Lubinka (~19:00)

2 VA raids:

1 - Raid to attack airfield Rogan (~5:20)
2 - Raid to attack airfield Kharkov-Aleshki (5:20-5:30)
3 - Raid to attack airfield Kharkov-Sokol'niki (5:30-5:32)
4 - Raid to attack airfields Poltava and Osnova (?)
5 - Raid to attack airfield Kharkov-Sokol'niki (~15:00)
6 - Raid to attack airfield Kharkov-Aleshki (~15:00)

17 VA raids:

1 - Raid to attack airfield Kramatorskaya (5:03 - 5:17)
2 - Raid to attack airfield Kramatorskaya (~19:15)
3 - Raid to attack airfield Dnepropetrovsk-South (~6:10)

15 VA raid:

1 - Raid to attack airfield Orel-Central (~6:30)

16 VA raids:

1 - Raid to attack airfield Bolshaya Kulikovka (?)
2 - Raid to attack airfield Orel-GVF (~14:30)
3 - Raid to attack airfield Khmelevaya and Gat' (Knubr') (14:28 - 14:30)
4 - Raid to attack airfield Orel-Central (~14:20)
5 - Raid to attack airfield Orel-Central (14:30 - 14:35)

8 VA raids:

1 - Raid to attack airfield Kutejnikovo (~13:00)
2 - Raid to attack airfield Stalino (~5:45)

7 may 1943:

16 VA raids:

1 - Raid to attack airfield Bolshaya Kulikovka (~5:22)
2 - Raid to attack airfields Khmelevaya (5:50-5:55) and Orel-Central (~6:00)

2 VA raids:

1 - Raid to attack airfields Kharkov-Aleshki and Kharkov-Sokol'niki (evening)
2 - Raid to attack airfield Rogan' (~19:15)


1 VA raids:

1 - Raid to attack airfield Sescha (~5:00)
2 - Raid to attack airfield Bryansk (~5:07)
3 - Raid to attack airfield Lubinka (?)

8 VA raids:

1 - Raid to attack airfield Ilovajsk (~8:45)
2 - Raid to attack airfield Ilovajsk (~14:25)
3 - Raid to attack airfield Kutejnikovo (~9:00)
4 - Raid to attack airfield Stalino (~9:00)
5 - Raid to attack airfield Kramatorskaya (~5:10)

-----------

It will be hard to describe all.. but I'll try :)

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.
 

Acc. to Priens book, the JG3-claims were at ca. 3:30 in the morning (Berlin time). Does this fit to the time of the attack?

Please, Evgeny, what is the source for your loss information?

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.
 

Berlin time = Moskow time + 2 hours.

3:30 (BT) = 5:30 (MT, as listed in all info I posted above).

Source of all lists: look 1st post.
"Расколотое небо. Май-июнь 1943", Олег Растренин.
("Broken sky. May-june 1943", by Oleg Rastrenin) ISBN: 9785699221783. 84x108/32, 320 pages. Releice date: 25.06.2007.

Oleg Rastrenin have great authority as specialist of assault aviation (Il-2 aircratft, units, pilots, organisation, operations during WW II). He has several books in russian, and 1 in english.
Il-2 Shturmovik Guards Units of World War 2 (Combat Aircraft) by Oleg Rastrenin
http://www.amazon.com/Shturmovik-Gua...1787481&sr=8-1

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.
 

If the VVS was attacking the target at 04:15(Moscow) on the 10Jun43 and II/JG3 made their first claims against the Il-2's at 03:20 it would be Eastern Europe time. Other wise it would be nearly a hour to the target and attack before the first claim could be made at 05:20(Moscow). Certain Luftwaffe units seem to use Berlin and others Eastern Europe in their claims it seems.

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.
 

About times (to clear the situation):

Time, mentioned in reports (see above with each raid) is :

TIME OVER TARGET. That mean, if Il-2 need to fly to his target for 30 minutes, and tome over target is (for example) 5:00 (3:00 German time), he will take off in 4:30 (2:30) german time. Then it takes (usually) 5-10 minute over target, and he is landing at 5:40 (3:40 German time).
Then:
If group of Il-2's was intercepted BEFORE it reach the target, Luftwaffe may claim victoryes from 4:30 to 5:00 (in german claimlists it will be from 2:30 to 3:00).

Claims over target are around 3:00 (german time).

Claims, when group of Il-2 was going to base will be listed (for example in Tony Woods lists) as from 3:00 to 3:30.

It is just example.

Actually, german fighters could attack 30 minutes BEFORE Il-2 (or A-20, or Pe-2) will come to target, and continue ther attacks during 30-40 minutes (and even longer - even following to landing airfields of Il-2's).

JG 51 Pilot Losses
 

Hi guys

I glanced through my copy of the JG 51 book by Anders/Held and I did not see any pilot losses listed for JG 51 on either 8 June or 10 June 1943. From Evgeny's information, it would appear that the authors did not include the loss of Gonzales on 8 June so perhaps there were some pilot losses in fact.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.
 

Hello all,

This is a very interesting subject.

Have some data on 8 Jun 43 relating to II./JG 3:

Claims:
08.06.43Oblt. Joachim Kirschner5./JG 3LaGG-5£ 60 266: at 200 m.05.18FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 45008.06.43Ltn. Horst Brock5./JG 3LaGG-5£ 60 224: at 1.200 m.05.20FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 45108.06.43Ltn. Horst Brock5./JG 3LaGG-5£ 69 223: at 1.000 m.05.22FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 45208.06.43Oblt. Werner Lucas4./JG 3LaGG-3£ 61 213: at 3.000 m.11.12FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 51308.06.43Ofw. Josef Schütte5./JG 3LaGG-5£ 61 218: at 3.500 m.11.14FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: ASM08.06.43Ltn. Franz RuhlStab II./JG 3Yak-1£ 62 799: at 4.000 m.11.15FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 28408.06.43Ofw. Josef Schütte5./JG 3Yak-1£ 61 267: at 2.500 m.11.17FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 45308.06.43Ltn. Franz RuhlStab II./JG 3LaGG-5£ 61 217: at 4.000 m.11.20FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 28508.06.43Oblt. Werner Lucas4./JG 3LaGG-5£ 61 243: at 2.800 m.11.22FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 51408.06.43Fw. Hans Grünberg5./JG 3Yak-1£ 70 316: at 3.800 m.18.20FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 45408.06.43Ltn. Hermann Schuster4./JG 3Yak-1£ 70 315: at 300 m.18.25FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: ASM


10 June 43:
10.06.43Ltn. Gerd Schaedle6./JG 3LaGG-5£ 61 612: at 1.500 m.03.18FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: ASM10.06.43Ltn. Hermann Schuster4./JG 3Il-2£ 61 657: at 200 m.03.20FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: ASM10.06.43Ltn. Horst Brock5./JG 3Il-2£ 61 872: at 50 m.03.20FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 45610.06.43Ltn. Ernst-Heinz Löhr6./JG 3Il-7£ 61 649: at 100 m.03.23FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 27510.06.43Uffz. Waldemar Eyrich6./JG 3LaGG-5£ 61 622: at 200 m.03.25FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: ASM10.06.43Fw. Hans Grünberg5./JG 3Yak-1£ 70 318: at 3.500 m.05.25FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 437

Best wishes,
Rob

Re: JG 51 Pilot Losses
 

Hello Leo,

at least in the Ader's book published in 1977 no Spain losses was included in the loss List of JG51.
What publish Year from your book ?

Best reards

JG 51 Pilot Losses
 

Hi Kalender

I looked and my copy dates from 1977 as well. Obviously this information was excluded from that version. I wonder if the later (1985) version includes Spanish losses?

Horrido!

Leo

Re: JG 51 Pilot Losses
 

Hi Leo,

I do not seen the 1985 version.

Best regards

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.
 

Thx for the time of the attack. I knew about the 2hours difference Moscow-berlin. So, it fits. Good!

I have the Adrs/Held book from 1985, it is a pure reprint afaik. No losses mentioned for that day.

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.
 

Addition to
Some combat reports.

Main attack was leaded by 2 Officers of 198 shap: Major M.Z. Bondarenko (CO 198 shap) and Kapitan V. Malinkin (CO 2nd eskadrilya of 198 shap). Both of them were very skilled pilots. Bondarenko , one of the most scilled VVS shap pilots and CO's, gain his first combat expirience in Winter War, and to june 1943 had ~200 combat mission, HSU (6.6.42). Malinkin joined VVS in 1940, was an instuktor, participated in GPW from first day. At time of his death 13 july 1943 under guns of Hptm.Herrmann, he had 10 german fighters at his score, ~ 200 combat missions, and large ammount of ground targets destoryed.

From combat report of 198 shap:

Groups of 198 shap start theyr attack on Sescha at 20:24 - 20:25. On the ground they saw: ~20 twoengined aircrafts in NW part of airfield, ~30 two- and singeengined aircratfs in N part, ~20 singleengined (probably fighters) aircratfs in E part of airfield, and in S part - ~15 covered twoengined aircrafts.

Attack started from altitude 800-900 metres from 25-30* dive (pilots used RS-132 rokets), followed to 300metres (crews dropped theyr HE and Splitter bombs), and to low level strafing (using 23mm VYa and 7,62 ShKAS). Exit from attack was in SE direction.

Crews spotted: as result of direct hits of RS-132 3 two engined aircrafts burned in NW part of airfield, and more 3 - in the center of airfield. On the N part of airfield spotted 2 big explosions, with altitude of flame and smoke to 250-300 metres (as noted "one explosion of black color, another - orange-red") It is beleived large fuel and ammutition depots exploded. Also, in the N part of airfield large group of ground personal (or pilots), ~50 peaple, who runed from building (probably from officers dining room) were attacked by VYa and ShKAS.

Fighter escort of 309 iap noted "18 fires in the area of aircrafts, and several strong explosions".

Report of U-2 crews of nightbomber regiment, wich flew to Sescha in night 8.06 - 9.06.43, "several large fires continued untill the morning"

Airfield was covered by german fighgters. First attack was made in area Chekalina Sloboda, in 3 km from Sescha airfield. German fighter were trying to drag escort from Il-2's, and then attack leaders of Il-2 groups to split theyr formation.

Leader of 1st group, Major Bondarenko, came under attack straight over airfield, when 2 Fw190 attacked him in Head On. After attck Bondarenko turned to heading 70*, and was attacked by another 2 Fw190. Defending his life, gunner of Bondarenko crew, Kapitan Bessmertnov, was badly wounded in head and in both legs, but could shot down one Fw190 (wingman) from very close distance, as stated "enemy fighter overturned on low altitude, and burning crashed to earth in area of Zagorjye (6km E from station Rekovichi)". Fw190 (leader) stopped his attack, climbed to left and went off.

After that Il-2 of Major Bondarenko was attacked by lone Bf109, who made totally 7 attackes, chasing Il-2 to Lyudinovo area. Enemy fighter made attacks from 6 oclock below, from distanse 100-200 metres. As a result Il-2 was badly damaged engine, and tail control cables. Bondarenko himself was woinded, but could emlanded at Krasny Gai airfield.

Second group of Il-2's, leaded by Kapitan Malinkin, was intercepted 2 kms before airfield Sescha by 2 Fw190. German fighter made unsuccessful attack from alt 1000metres on the Il-2 of Malinkin with angle 3/4-4/4. After that Fw190 (leader) exited from attack in front of Il-2 group and started slight right combat turn. In that moment Malinkin turned his Il-2 a little to right and opened fire from distanse 70-100 metres from VYa. Fw190 exploded, lost parts of wings and crashed in the swamp near airfield Sescha. Victory was confirmed by Kapitan Pitzkhelauri and St.Lt. Volkov, wingmen of Malinkin.

Aircraft of Major Bondarenko:
http://pics.livejournal.com/bersrk/pic/0000geq0

I beleive that He111's, destroyed and damaged at airfield Sescha, were 198 shap crews "job".

Best wishes!

P.S. Sorry, my english is not perfect. :)

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.
 

On May 6, 1943, there was a strong Rumanian fighter presence in the Kramatorskaya and Sslavyansk area (SE of Kharkov), with both victory claims and losses on their part. In that period, Hungarian '109s were active in the Kharkov-Byelgorod area. They should be included in the equation, too.

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.
 

THx Denes!

I'll post info about 6 may attack a bit later (very long lists)...

Post above, about 198 shap raid to Sescha was on 8 june 1943.

Best wishes!

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.
 

Evgeny,
Is there any listing in your source of the Luftwaffe raid on the Kursk railway junction on the 02Jun43 approx. 05:00 (Moscow)? I believe there were claims made by 30GIAP and others against the bombers also ZG1 and JG51.

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.
 

Continue:

6 may 1943

1 VA raids:

1 - Raid to attack airfields Shatalovo and Borovskoye(~4:30)

To Borovskoye:

10 x Il-2 (leader Major Karyakin, 198 shap)
6 x Il-2 (leader Ml.Ltn. Egorov, 62 shap) with close escort of ?? x Yak-1 (leader St.Lt. Seroglazov, 162 iap)
4 x Il-2 (leader St.Lt. Alferov, 312 shap).

To Shatalovo:

5 x Il-2 (leader Major St.Lt.M.Stupishin, 312 shap) with close escort of 2 x La-5 (leader Kap.Chalbash, 49 iap)

--------------------------
Road to target:

Over Yelnya group of 312 shap came under attack of 6 x Fw190+Bf109's.

Losses:
Il-2 (Ml.Lt. I.Pastukhov, 312 shap) shot down by Fw190, crashed at 10km NE Yelnya;
Il-2 (Ml.Lt. L.Komarovskiy, 312 shap) shot down by Fw190, crashed at area Shatalovo;

--------------------------
Over the target:
Result of attack on both airfield is not seen because of aircombat.

---------------------
Road from target to home bases:

~6:25 group of 32 shap came under attack of 1 Bf110.
~6:30 group came under attack of large group of Fw190

Losses:
Il-2 (32 shap) heavy damaged by Bf110, crashlanded at his base airfield;
Il-2 (32 shap) heavy damaged by Bf110, crashlanded at his base airfield;
Il-2 (32 shap) heavy damaged by Bf110, crashlanded at his base airfield;

Claims:

Bf110 shot down by Il-2 gunners (Ml.Serj. Zubrarev - WiA, 62 shap), crashed in area of Baltunino;
Fw190 shot down by Il-2 gunners (312 shap), crashed and burned in area of Borovskoye;
Fw190 shot down by La-5 (Kap.Chalbash, 49 iap), crashed in area of Zhary;
Fw190 shot down by Yak-1 (St.Lt. Seroglazov, 162 iap), crashed in area of airfield;

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.
 

Evgeny, Tony Woods list has Uffz August Mueller 8/JG51 claiming a Il-2 at 04:25 (44733) and 04:30 (44881). Is this in the area that the 312 ShAP was targeting. The book "Broken Sky" doesn't have any maps. From what I've been able to understand so far the 49 IAP said that they missed the airfield by 1 km to the west and aborted.

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.
 

Yes, You are right, mission was aborted, and was remade at evening, but with strong interception and losses.

About Bf110, claimed by Il-2 gunners: I can only porpose that it was reconaissanse Bf110, because I./ZG 1 had no lost or damaged Bf110 on that day. Also, there are no claims of I./ZG 1 on that day.

About maps: unfortunatly, there are no names of bases of most of regiments particopated in raids in many times, so I cant say in what plases directly aircombats were. I know only target place , so we just can only imagine what heading had attacking groups and what rout they had.

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.
 

Thanks Evgeny for the May43 data.

Best Regards

Andy Fletcher

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.
 

:) Its only VERY short part...

I'll drink a bit coffe and... will type the continue :) May be some 2-3 hours and You will got all May raids here.

Re: VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.
 

07 may 43 Airfield raids
Kharkov-Sokol'niki
6 Il-2 820 ShAP
8 Yak-7b 6 IAP
Kharkov-Aleshki
6 Il-2 800 ShAP
8 Yak-7b 183 IAP

Losses to 800 and 820 ShAP: None
(claim made against 820 ShAP by Lt Paul-Heinrich Daehne 2./JG52 but no kill)
Losses 6 IAP: two Yak-7b
(First was by Ofw Rudolf Trenkel (2/JG52) but unclear if Trenkel, Oblt Herbert Planer or Hptm Johannes Wiese got the second)
Losses 183 IAP: 3 Yak-7b forced landed behind Russian lines.
(Oblt Rudolf Miethig (3./JG52) claimed 2 LaGG-5 and a LaGG-3 and Lt Max Geissler (3.) claimed a LaGG-5)
VVS claims 4 Bf-109's ( I/JG52 no losses)
800 ShAP claimed 7 Bf-109 and 3 Bf-110's on the ground
820 ShAP claimed 4 aircraft on the ground