92 Squadron Battle of Britain Claims - July 10th 1940
 

Can anyone help me to identify the source of a couple of claims listed in Brian Cull's Battle for the Channel. During the morning of 10th July 1940, the opening day of the Battle of Britain, 92 Squadron had 3 encounters with Luftwaffe bombers. Cull lists the 3rd of these as 2 Spitfires near Barry, 12:00-13:18, flown by P/O Hill and P/O Wright claiming an He 111 probable shared. I can find no corresponding combat reports at the National Archive and Form 540 and 541 do not mention this particular claim. I have reviewed claims and losses in Mason, Ramsey/Cornwell, Foreman, Shores, and Parry without success.

Re: 92 Squadron Battle of Britain Claims - July 10th 1940
 

Hi Peter,
Certainly there is nothing in the ORB that indicates any combat on the 10th, in fact it states that no contact was made.
It is possible that the information came from D G Williams's combat report for the 10th which seems to contradict the ORB although it is difficult to read.
Alternatively, perhaps at the time that the research was completed he had access to a logbook and took the information from that.
Gerry

Re: 92 Squadron Battle of Britain Claims - July 10th 1940
 

You can ask him directly here. He is active in this forum under the name of Brian (see for example the last post of the sticky post on Friendly fire above)

Re: 92 Squadron Battle of Britain Claims - July 10th 1940
 

Hi guys

Just spotted this.

Sorry, I can't give a definitive answer as to where the information came from (my material for the book was gathered over a period of 25-30 years!) but I do recall reading a history of 92 Squadron (possibly privately published) many years ago - 'Best of the Few' by Michael Robinson. I no longer have a copy but this may have been the source of the information. If not, I'll keep delving into a ton of papers that represent part of my archive!!

Cheers
Brian

Re: 92 Squadron Battle of Britain Claims - July 10th 1940
 

Thanks to all for your replies, and especially Brian -- I greatly appreciate your amazing work in your 2 Battle of Britain volumes, when is Volume 3 due!

Peter

Re: 92 Squadron Battle of Britain Claims - July 10th 1940
 

Hi Peter

I do have my critics so your kind words are encouraging!

I'm afraid that I cannot yet give a date for 'Battle for the Airfields' but hopefully next year. Definitely not this year - too much on my plate!

Cheers
Brian

92 Squadron Battle of Britain Claims - July 10th 1940
 

Brian, I completely agree with Peter, your work is amazing. Your two books on the Battle of Britain, Twelve Days on May, and With the Yanks in Korea are some of my favorites of yours, and some of the best books I've ever read. Looking forward to whatever you do next and hopefully a third volume on the Battle of Britain.

James

Re: 92 Squadron Battle of Britain Claims - July 10th 1940
 

Hi James

Wow! Thanks for the kind words.

I've now got at least two fans!

Best
Brian

92 Squadron Battle of Britain Claims - July 10th 1940
 

Hi Brian

You're most welcome. Thank You for all the work you've done on your books.

James

Re: 92 Squadron Battle of Britain Claims - July 10th 1940
 

Hi Peter and Brian,

I have just had a look in Robinson's "Best of the Few" (pg 47) and there is no mention of any claims by 92 on the 10th July.

Cheers,

Tim

Re: 92 Squadron Battle of Britain Claims - July 10th 1940
 

Thanks for that, Tim

Not that source then!

I'll have to start digging deeply!

Cheers
Brian

Re: 92 Squadron Battle of Britain Claims - July 10th 1940
 

You're welcome Brian.

In truth I'm a bit flummoxed about where that info regarding 92 and the 10th could have come from. I've had a bit of a scuffle around with things but they just don't fit. Howard Hill didn't get a He111 until the 15th September when he bagged two by himself confirmed, these being his only claims for 111s. Allan Wright did have a shared He111 but that was on the 14th August with Desmond "Bill" Williams. Sounds like this might be one of those inevitable little errors that sneak under the radar.

By the way, I'm another fan as well so do please keep the books and research coming!

Cheers,

Tim

Re: 92 Squadron Battle of Britain Claims - July 10th 1940
 

All,
I remain convinced that this He111 reference relates to a flight earlier in the day (11am) on 10th July and made by PO's Wright and Williams.
Williams combat report details an attack on a He111.
Gerry

Re: 92 Squadron Battle of Britain Claims - July 10th 1940
 

Hi Gerry,

That's hugely interesting. Can you confirm that Williams's combat report is an actual official Form F Combat Report document? If so then that obviously might mean the IO made a bit of a balls up with the ORB record which could have rippled down over time. It would be great if we could work this out.

Tim

Re: 92 Squadron Battle of Britain Claims - July 10th 1940
 

Yes. It is his official combat report for July 10th 1940.
Email me at gedburke3ATyahooDOTcoDOTuk and I will send you a copy.
Regards
Gerry

Re: 92 Squadron Battle of Britain Claims - July 10th 1940
 

Hi Gerry,

Thank you so much for the kind offer and I have duly sent an email off to you right now. Inside of which I have also mentioned a possible reason for an error with the ORB arising from 92's IO!

Best,

Tim

Re: 92 Squadron Battle of Britain Claims - July 10th 1940
 

Hi guys

That's most interesting.

Although I haven't located my original notes (probably disposed of), I was going to mention that I believed some information would have been extracted from Air16/960 (Combats & Casualties). Whilst these daily reports do not provide names, they do report squadron claims for the day.

Many moons ago, when I first 'discovered' the file, I spent many hours handwriting the copious notes into an exercise book (copies of all my notes for 1940 were sent to John Foreman, who used them in his Fighter Command Claims book).

Having found the Heinkel claim in Air16/690, I would have then checked the ORB for names, only to find no combat recorded, but would have noted the names of the pilots on that particular sortie! Speculation now but probably correct.

Cheers
Brian

Re: 92 Squadron Battle of Britain Claims - July 10th 1940
 

Hi Gerry and Brian,

Firstly, thanks Gerry once again for sending a copy of Bill's CR which certainly does show that Green Section of 92 engaged the enemy and claimed something unconfirmed - the text in many places is not entirely clear due to this being not the crispest copy in the NA. Sometimes you forget the most obvious but I'd forgotten to check Wynn's MotBoB which has Bill claiming an He111 damged on the 10th July. Bill's CR talks about white smoke coming out of the starboard engine after one of his attacks so the EA must be either a Me110, Do17, Ju88 or He111.

As I mentioned to Gerry in my email, Tom Wiese was 92's beloved IO and although he was well liked he was notorious for how awful his English was (he was Norwegian). Geoff Wellum said after catching up with Tom again in 1976 that his English was no better than in 1940 and said, "I hope he wrote our reports better than he spoke." So I certainly wouldn't put it beyond the bounds of possibility that Tom might have been a bit lax or even erroneous in his official record keeping and this incident is one of those.

Cheers,

Tim

Re: 92 Squadron Battle of Britain Claims - July 10th 1940
 

Thanks guys

Obviously an error on my part regarding names but basically correct!

What a relief!

Cheers
Brian

Re: 92 Squadron Battle of Britain Claims - July 10th 1940
 

One interesting thing with Bill's CR Brian is that it doesn't appear to mention another member of his section also attacking, he makes three or so attacks and then the aircraft spirals down into cloud, whereupon he losses it and returns to base. I'm interested where the shared claim for this comes from, perhaps there's another CR which existed or exists from another of Bill's section or even flight also detailing attacking this EA.

One thing is for sure though Brian you're certainly correct that 92 attacked an EA around 1100 on the 10th July!

Cheers,

Tim