RAF Hudson shot down by USAAF Black Widow
 

Hi !

FK803 , Hudson of 161 Sqn, was possibly shot down by a crew of a 422 NFS Black Widow, which claimed a Do217.
The pilot of the Hudson bailed out, returned to his unit and was charged by a RAF court.
The Hudson crashed at Asselborn (Luxembourg) on 21/03/1945.

Is this story correct ? Who can supply me more details ?

Many thanks and best regards from rainy Belgium

Luc

Hallo Luc,

Been reading the latest issue (119) of '40-'45 Toen & Nu I guess ?


Gr.

Paul

Hudson - Black Widow
 

Hi Paul,

Never read that publication ..

Best regards

Luc

Luc,

Bought my copy last week and it has a four page story on this subject written by Phil Mertens a member of the Belgian Aviation Archaeology Group with lots of pictures....

Groetjes,

Paul

Hudon loss
 

Interesting Story - but why would the RAF pilot be charged for being shot down? Surely it was the other pilot who would have faced a court!

Luc & Larry,

According to this article the pilot of FK803 Flight Lieutenant Anthony Helfer was (after the war) accused for letting his crew down....The serial for the Black Widow is given as 42-5540.

Paul

according to the 422nd nfs logs there were 2 Do 217's claimed or were they both Hudsons ?

Pilots R.A. Anderson in P-61 # 40 and Koehler in P-61 # 79

E ~

more
 

Luc checking further...........

2250 to 0105 hrs. R.A. Anderson. enemy a/c jinking violently, visual at 1200 feet, radar gone out (bad weapon). at Angels 3 1/2, at 300 feet ID as Do 217 going 140/150 mph. fired from 400 feet dead astern. wings burned from wing tip to wing tip. Exploded, enemy a/c passed over the right wing of the P-61 and crashed into the ground at 0045 hrs. 1 parachute seen. weather CAVU 1/4 moon.

E ~

Another Hudson T9945 came down at Dochamps probably shot by #79...

second claim
 

Hi Paul.

I have marked on my logs possible Hudson III
AE 505/L

same a/c ? this was shot down by # 79, Koehler and crew.

A-1 contact at 1 1/2 miles, 3-4 minutes after # 40's claim. visual contact at 1500 feet, no evasive action. got in behind and fired on a do 217 at 600 feet. 1 Burst and the a/c exploded and disintegrated at 0100hrs. No parachutes seen

weather was CAVU 1/4 moon.

E ~

Erich,

The article mentions T9445 as coded NA-O. A third Hudson AE595 coded NA-L made a crashlanding at the ammodepot at Rheine airfield. The crew, Ragan, Thomas and Gray was killed.
Two other Hudsons NA-P and NA-J returned safely to Tempsford.

Paul

Possible reason for court-martial
 

This is only supposition, but it seems reasonable.

The SOE aircraft will have been briefed to fly specific routes (and times), to avoid night fighter action. In their turn, the nightfighters will have been allocated specific patrol areas. If the SOE aircraft strayed off course into one of these patrol areas, then it would become a target. Ideally the USAAF pilot would have had perfect aircraft recognition abilities at night, but life isn't ideal.

Re: RAF Hudson shot down by USAAF Black Widow
 

i forgot to tell that Bomber command was not informed about SOE ops for that night coz it was a secret opperation.

Re: RAF Hudson shot down by USAAF Black Widow
 

I can't think what Do 217s would have been doing over Luxembourg in March 1945. AFAIK the only ones left in service were doing night photo-reconnaissance over the Eastern Front.

Re: RAF Hudson shot down by USAAF Black Widow
 

There was an article about this incident some years ago in an issue of "After The Battle". Drove the folks at one of the Yahoo P-61 groups nearly round the twist.

edit - to judge by the index here:

http://www.afterthebattle.com/atb.pdf

it was in issue 119.

Re: RAF Hudson shot down by USAAF Black Widow
 

A few points. Helfer was not court martialed. He was, in fact, awarded a DFC. His aircraft was MA-N 161 Sqdn letters were MA not NA.

Much of the story of Helfer and his crew, and the lead up to the final flight, may be found in a book by Gibb McCall - Flight Most Secret (there's one for sale on ebay as I write)

Re: RAF Hudson shot down by USAAF Black Widow
 

Also on board are 3 Belgian Officers who killed in the crash. The target would be Leipzig-Dresden to drop the agents.

Re: RAF Hudson shot down by USAAF Black Widow
 

This was the 3rd attempt to drop the 3 agents coded Benedict/Express and Leader

Re: RAF Hudson shot down by USAAF Black Widow
 

dear readers,
I was the person who did the reasearch and made the article about the hudson crash at (baraque fraiture) (la tracee de lamormenil from helfer
I can declare that that night 3 hudsons came down.
,luxembourg, baraque fr, dochamps(dochamps )is still under investigation
because they had all secret missions Bomber Command was not informed about their actions neither the Americans knew about their ops.
enjoy reading
phil mertens

Re: RAF Hudson shot down by USAAF Black Widow
 

the one from Baraque fraiture had as mission to drop secret agents behind enemy lines at remagen to blow up railroad connections,
phil

Re: RAF Hudson shot down by USAAF Black Widow
 

I have researched this incident as far as possible ( there is a family connection) and previous posters may find my results interesting.
161 Squadron from Tempsford; Hudson FK 803-MA-N shot down Wednesday 21st March 1944, possibly by USAAF night fighter. The pilot baled out using the only parachute. Killed were;
Navigator Henry Scurr JOHNSON FO RAFVR.
Forrest Harold THOMPSON DFM FO 412766 RNZAF Air Gunner.
Raymond Frankish ESCREET DFM Ft L 143469 Wireless Operator. Aged 22.

The operation was coded BENEDICT but this was probably in connection with one of the three Belgian agents also killed.
Lt G CORBISHER; Lt J MOREL and Lt L deWinter.
All are buried (with headstone markers) at the aircraft crash site in a wooded area a few hundred meters south-west of Maulusmuhle railway station in a 'collective isolated grave'. This crash site with remnents of fuselage and an engine are marked with a photograph on 'Google Earth'.

Tempsford (on Gibralter Farm) has small (private) museum and details of the crew are on 'Allied Forces Special Duty Operations & Associated Roll Of Honour. Page 398 of 469.

Re: RAF Hudson shot down by USAAF Black Widow
 

Abit late but some more about the Hudson's shot down that night of 20/21 april 1945.
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=19504

Re: RAF Hudson shot down by USAAF Black Widow
 

Correct Luc; sent a PM to you.
Regards,
Henk.

Re: RAF Hudson shot down by USAAF Black Widow
 

Hello Terry,

For your information the full names of the Belgian agents are : Lt Jean Morel (born 1/5/1921 at Brussels), Lt Guy Corbisier (29/7/1920 at Antwerp) and Lt Léon de Winter (6/4/1921 at Ottignies).

Re: RAF Hudson shot down by USAAF Black Widow
 

According to listing P-61 42-5540 was written off after a accident 22 Jan 1945
http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=114892

Re: RAF Hudson shot down by USAAF Black Widow
 

the casualites memorials http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg...398693&df=all&

Re: RAF Hudson shot down by USAAF Black Widow
 

related link
http://www.oocities.org/mep1100/422NFS.html