56th FG - friendly fire case on 4 May 1943 - info needed
 

On 4 May 1943 Dave Schilling of 56th FG supposedly knocked down a British Spitfire, both part of Ramrod over the Netherlands. Can anyone confirm/deny? Thanks in advance

Ha, it was Schilling? What is your source? One Spitfire indeed returned to Northolt with some holes - there is a photo of damaged wing in Mushroom's 315 Sqn - but was it the aircraft? Two Spitfires failed to return - plenty of German claims as well. A friendly pilot had a lenghty recognition dog-fight with a Thunderbolt and as he recalled, he got really sweat when found it was an American - he realised he cannot down him but was not sure if American did the same. ;)

Ha, it was 315 Sqn?! Quite ironic if you think of Gabreski.
Unfortunately, my source is just a loose piece of info found on some message board.
I'm just reading the "56th Fighter Group" by Roger Freeman (published by Osprey) and ther's not a word of the incident, or even about 4 May at all. So maybe, it's just a rumour. Thank you Franek for replying

I remember a note in DeDecker/Roba book(?) that it was Zemke's Wolfpack responsible for the attack but no names mentioned.
PCR of Dubielecki (pilot hit) does mention attacking Thunderbolts. Fortunatelly Gabby did not fly the mission! ;)

"It proved to be another unhappy day for the 56th on withdrawal support. Near Walcheren what was taken to be an Me 109 was attacked and shot down. The victim later proved to be an RAF Spitfire." (Freeman, "The Mighty Eighth", p. 43.)

Hi Christer! I haven't heard from you for quite a while.
Looks like unfortunately there was an actual loss of RAF Spitfire, not only a "close shave".
Any idea which squadron did the Spit come from? Franek, if you're around, could you possibly check if 315 lost any of its own on that day? I don't have the Mushroom's book you mentioned before.

Btw, Christer - how's your work on BC RS vol. III and Schuck's biography?

I do not need to check! ;)
Maciej Lipiński was downed and killed over Walcheren near Flushing. I think he was a section leader of mentioned friendly pilot. Another two pilots went down that day as well.
Anybody has any related documents?!

Lipinski's Spitfire IX (EN131) was claimed as shot down by a German test pilot from the Erla Werke factory flight.

The victim shot down by the P-47 was most likely a 611 Squadron Spitfire IX (EN567) piloted by Flying Officer V. S. Neill. The RAF had him listed as "possibly hit by B-17 gunners".

The Brit writer Roger Freeman also didn't mention that the Spitfires may have attacked the Thunderbolts first. It wouldn't be the first time, or the last.

If I can correctly decipher a poor scan of Fay's combat report, his victim was taken POW. Thus it must have been Tomasz Łęgowski of 316 Sqn. Fay is not mentioned on Tony Wood's list though.

Even worsest RAF pilot could not mistook P-47 for B-17. Certainly there was a court of inquiry which provided more details.

Yes indeed, Americans got the reputation of attacking first and only then asking.

Lagarto,

It’s going just great, thank you!

“Black Cross/Red Star”, Vol. 3 will be published quite soon - maybe this spring or summer - by Eagle Editions. I can assure you that they are working very hard to have it finished as soon as possible. See the latest updates on Eagle Editions’s website:

http://www.eagle-editions.com/BCRS.HTM

As for the Schuck book, having completed a couple of other books in the meantime, I am working on that one right now. But thanks for reminding me - I have to send a batch of new questions to Mr.Schuck. I can’t say when it will be completed, but I hope soon. See the Schuck book website for more updates:

http://www.bergstrombooks.elknet.pl/

Maybe you misidentified the German pilot. Tony Wood never claimed to have complete data.

I doubt if that would mean anything. In Wing Leader, 'Johnnie' Johnson said the RAF had a prearranged agreement with USAAF Bomber Command that RAF fighters were not supposed to fly within range of defensive fire from heavy bombers. Johnson thought the request was reasonable and logical, and had no objections.

Unlike certain Brits and the Poles, American pilots did not whine and complain just because RAF pilots constantly misidentified and attacked USAAF planes. The Americans usually felt pity for RAF pilots, because their gunnery skills were so incredibly bad. Everyone knew it, and the 56th FG was no exception. A couple cases from my database:

August 27th, 1943. After sweeping Lille, RV with the bombers was made at St. Poi, and the Forts were escorted to just off the French Coast on the way home. Enroute home the 63rd FS was bounced by a flight of Spitfires and scattered, along with having one of their P-47s damaged by gunfire by an overzealous Spitfire pilot.

February 3rd, 1945. The twelve P-47s of the 61st FS that had remained as top cover were bounced at this time, too, by a dozen Spitfires, but no damage was inflicted. The mission returned at 1402 after a five and a half hour most eventful sweep. The longest mission to date.

Poor marksmanship was not confined to Spitfire and Seafire pilots. RAF Typhoons from Lympne and Manston constantly attacked Spitfires and other Typhoons. For some units it started as an annoyance but eventually took on the appearance of a roadrunner cartoon -- with the Typhoon pilots playing the role of Wile E. Coyote. They attacked No. 41 Squadron planes all the time, but couldn't quite get a bead on their Spitfire XIIs.

Yes, hypocrisy often figures heavily in RAF unit histories.

It's no secret (except to you) that early in the war, RAF squadrons in the UK started painting their propeller spinners white to discourage their own pilots from shooting at each other.

No I did not.

The question is when the arrengement was done. RAF pilots were generally annoyed with excessive gunners' claims and definetelly were not happy to do their job as it was not possible to escort bombers properly without closing to them.

Unfortunatelly I cannot ask you to talk with Gabby Gabreski or Jack Ilfrey anymore. I suppose they would share your views.

This cheauvinistic Briton Freeman has mentioned this incident. As yet I was unable to identify Spitfire unit involved.

Have you not mistook it with 2 March? W/O Livesley of 198 Sqn was killed by Lt. Sparer of 363FG.

Unfortunatelly for some pilots marksmanship was just good enough.
Sadly enough American marksmanship was much better. A cuple of examples from my database.
43.08.17 11.00
Spitfire 341 Sqn Andre Poirier POW SE Boulogne Lt.Col. LC McCollom 352FG
43.12.21 11.00/10.58-12.41
Typhoon IB 609 Sqn S/L Pat G Thornton-Brown + 10 km S of Hesdin
Typhoon IB 609 Sqn F/O Charles Wesley Miller RCAF + Doullens
Typhoon 609 Sqn Art Ross USA OK all by P-47 78FG
43.12.21 11.00-12.10
Spitfire IX 501 Sqn F/O AA Griffiths POW Abbeville P-47 78FG
44.01.24 11.30
Typhoon 197 Sqn? Liege 1/Lt. RH Knapp P-47D 83FS 78FG
44.03.28
Mosquito FB.VI 107 Sqn F/O JA Glen + W/O T Davison + S Dieppe P-51 4FG
44.06.22 19.50- 2x Mustang I 268 Sqn? pilot OK. P-47
44.07.08 Spitfire 340 Sqn Michael Boudier POW P-47
44.07.14 a.m.
Spitfire 132 Sqn W/O Reeves + Calvados P-51 USAAF
44.07.24 a.m.
Spitfire 453 Sqn P/O Kinross + Bayeux P-47
44.08.10
Mustang III 122 Sqn F/O Pinches w. St Leger P-38
44.08.26 08.45
Spitfire 602 Sqn W/O Ellis OK Argeuil/Rouen P-47
Doubtless with such a marksmanship the war could have been shorter if they were firing at Germans.

Yes, we Europeans are well known of hypocrisy.

Well, it was no secret for me and I may add that yellow wing leading edges served the same purpose. Apparently it worked well as no other measures were taken. Quite recent friendly fire incident indicate that Americans cannot cope with it up up until today and percenteage of losses caused by own troops increase with time.

Same old story
 

.50,

I have read a number of your posts over the past months and have come to the conclusion you obviously have a problem with the R.A.F in general, or more specifically anything British or European.

You constantly undermine and berate anything relating to RAF Fighter Command, it’s aircraft, its tactics and more importantly the airman who served in it.

You question any RAF related subject, and in a fashion unique to yourself (thankfully) you systematically set about to criticise and undermine the achievements of these men.

If you have nothing positive and original to say other than constant RAF bashing, keep it to yourself, I for one am bored with the constant whinging (sorry only us Brit’s do that)

If your bothered to look out from behind them blinkers you maybe surprised to find that the RAF did actually contribute to the defeat of the Luftwaffe, if but only in a minor capacity. :shock:

We are all aware of the limitations the RAF had in aircraft, tactics and new to me RAF airmanship. However we accept it, like we do the limitations of other airforces, however we don’t keep sticking it down their throats.

Of interest, where do you live. ?

Christer, say hello to Mr. Schuck from me :) Looking forward to both the books.
Franek, thanks for posting the data about "friendy fire" cases. I just located one of them in a Typhoon monograph, although it doesn't say the T-Bolts were from 78 FG. What's your source, if I may ask? In case of McCollom, I guess you meant 353 FG, not 352 FG. McCollom, former 56 FG pilot, took over the command of 353 FG in early August, IIRC.

And, by the way - take it easy, gents. War is over.

Sources for this particular case were books of Norman Franks, Roger Freeman, Frank Ziegler and files from Tony Wood.
I do not remember which source mentioned 78 FG and I would appreciate names of those pilots and details of the aircraft they flew.
My list is of course much longer and includes fratricide cases of almost every air force that flew in WWII. It is far from complete, however, and as yet I am not going to publish it - more research is needed.
And the war - is it over? Poland has still several matters not settled both with Germany and Soviet Union. I am crossing fingers now, that remnants of ancient (occupation) regime will be finally removed but it is waaay off topic.

Hello Franek,

Interestingly enough, the "78th Fighter Group in World War II" by Garry L. Fry mentions no less than 4 Typhoons were lost to Americans on 21 December 1943 (unfortunately no names of pilots are mentioned), but adds that another Tiffie was possibly shot down by RAF Spitfire.

All the best,

Ota

Spring 1943.

Only because the RAF wanted to direct attention away from their own excessive pilot claims.

In 1941, RAF fighter pilots inflated shootdowns by almost 10:1. That habit was hard to break. On August 23rd 1944, 'Johnnie' Johnson's 127 Wing engaged JG 26 and JG 11 -- the RAF pilots claimed twelve fighters shot down, but my source states the Germans did not lose a single aircraft in those combats. This Spitfire Wing was not an inexperienced outfit, so there was no excuse for their nonsense. In general, one has to question the veracity of RAF evaluation methods for pilot claims -- and those of the Wing Leader, Mr. 40-Victory-Ace.

From FRIENDLY FIRE, by Richard Townshend Bickers, p.76-77:

"...In February 1941, deliveries of the Spitfire Mk V had begun[...]In Britain nobody had yet been able to analyse the effect of cannon fire when aircraft strafed ground forces. A demonstration was therefore arranged. Salisbury Plain was the obvious place. It being hardly practical to experiment on troops, a convoy of lorries was to be the target.
The high-ranking RAF and Army officers and some civilians who, because of their technical or political interest, were invited, were corralled in an enclosure at a safe distance from what, in battle, would be termed 'the killing ground'.
Six Spitfires came swooping into view with the sweet sound of Merlin engines, music to an airman's ears, to which a few seconds later was added the sound of gunfire and explosions of shells. Five aeroplanes flailed the lorries, ripped the canvas tilts to ribbons, tore great holes in their bodywork and blasted the engines to fragments.
The sixth directed all its destructive power at the spectators. As the din of aero engines and gunfire diminished, the cries of injured and dying men arose. Two generals and three other senior officers were killed, some twenty others wounded.
The photographs taken by a War Office Photographer were confiscated, secrecy was enjoined on all who had witnessed the lunatic act. The perpetrator was variously rumoured to be a Pole who went berserk or simply aimed badly; a traitor working for Germany; or an ordinary British squadron pilot who was already crazed by too much operational flying and driven completely mad at the moment by the noise and flames and general reminders of combat..."

Did Livesley or his mates bounce these Mustangs first?

Is that all, Franek? You forgot the Allied planes shot down by RAF pilots. (My list has over 100 destroyed or damaged). You did list Franks as a source; surely you must know about some of these?

William Chorley did Bomber Command Losses and Ross McNeill did Coastal Command Losses which I haven't read. I do have Fighter Command Losses; a handy desk reference, but not a reliable source for total losses -- for the Battle of Britain months, about 250 aircraft losses are missing. It appears that Franks may have omitted thousands of aircraft losses from his three volume set. When I was looking at losses from motor trouble, I checked the No. 247 Squadron history and the author listed 20 Typhoon airframes lost to engine failures -- but only six were recorded by Franks.

Anyway I've found several hundred friendly fire incidents caused by the RAF and other British military units (sometimes they did hit the target). Far too many cases to paste in here, but someday I will post all findings and sources on a Web site. The most enlightening data came from Allied flyers, soldiers, and sailors -- in reference to the number of times they were attacked by the RAF or British anti-aircraft batteries.

Well RAF flyers managed to do this in just three months:

07 Jul 40 Hurricane P2756 Shot down by RAF Spitfire.
08 Jul 40 Hurricane P3461 Shot down by RAF Spitfire.
10 Jul 40 Hurricane P3676 Damaged by gunfire from RAF Spitfire.
01 Aug 40 Battle L5568 Shot down by RAF night-fighter.
11 Aug 40 Hurricane N2667 Shot down by RAF Spitfire.
11 Aug 40 Hurricane s/n ? Damaged by gunfire from RAF fighter.
15 Aug 40 Blenheim L6610 Shot down by RAF Spitfire.
24 Aug 40 Blenheim T1804 Shot down by RAF Hurricane.
24 Aug 40 Blenheim Z5736 Damaged by gunfire from RAF Hurricane.
24 Aug 40 Blenheim N3531 Damaged by gunfire from RAF Hurricane.
28 Aug 40 Spitfire R6832 Shot down by RAF Spitfire.
28 Aug 40 Hurricane R4198 Shot down by RAF Spitfire.
31 Aug 40 Spitfire X4054 Shot down by RAF Hurricane.
03 Sep 40 Blenheim L1512 Shot down by RAF Hurricane.
03 Sep 40 Blenheim L8650 Damaged by gunfire from RAF Hurricane.
03 Sep 40 Blenheim L1409 Damaged by gunfire from RAF Hurricane.
14 Sep 40 Hurricane P3209 Shot down by RAF Spitfire.
14 Sep 40 Hurricane L1981 Damaged by gunfire from RAF Spitfire.
17 Sep 40 Hurricane s/n ? Shot down by RAF Hurricane.
18 Sep 40 Spitfire R6772 Shot down by RAF Spitfire.
18 Sep 40 Hurricane s/n ? Damaged by gunfire from RAF Spitfire.
29 Sep 40 Hurricane V6621 Shot down by RAF Hurricane.
13 Oct 40 Blenheim L6637 Shot down by RAF Hurricane.
13 Oct 40 Blenheim K7135 Damaged by gunfire from RAF Hurricane.

British AA units destroyed and damaged a similar number of RAF planes.

Sources:
FIGHTER COMMAND LOSSES, Norman Franks.
THE BATTLE of BRITAIN: THEN & NOW, Winston Ramsey, ed.
THE HAWKER HURRICANE, Francis Mason.
SPITFIRE ACE (documentary; interview with pilot of Spitfire R6772)

During test flights over the UK, a prototype clipped-wing Spitfire was painted bright yellow -- good idea because, as predicted, RAF pilots often attacked the camouflaged kind.

No other measures taken, eh? Some RAF planes had a solid white stripe wrapped around the fuselage. RAF fighters in the Far East eventually had their roundels reduced in size because they looked uncomfortably similar to Japanese roundels.

I know a measure the RAF should have taken, but didn't. Tell us how many planes with a natural metal finish were shot down by aimed fire from Allied pilots.

RAF squadrons have not shot down an enemy plane since World War II -- but they have shot down some RAF planes since then.:wink:

In 2003, there was at least two friendly fire accidents involving British Challenger tanks in Southern Iraq. One Challenger II was destroyed and according to a BBC news report, the turret was torn off the hull when hit by gunfire from another British tank. During the 1991 Gulf War there were no less than three similar cases. In one, a Challenger I destroyed a British APC and damaged another.

The MoD covered up every fratricide incident in the Falklands (ten British soldiers were killed) until they were pressured by a British newspaper in 1986. High speed commo will stop many of these lash-ups; it is now possible for a soldier to leak anonymous tips to anyone worldwide, within seconds.

I am beginning to wonder, how the Allied could win the war, when they seem to have struggled more with each other than with the Luftwaffe :wink:

Sorry, just joking...

Yes, and we know that the Allied top ace, Ivan Kozhedub, shot down two Mustangs in quick succession. Those were not added to his official tally of 62 confirmed victories. . . :wink:

RAF
 

.50

I am fascinated by your attempted character assignation of all things RAF. I find it truly repugnant that all you do is constantly critics the achievements of RAF Fighter Command.

I’m equally surprised by the lack response from fellow members and our host, I can only presume by their deafening silence they all agree with your twisted and distorted views. If this poison was directed at the 8th, 9th or 15th Airforces I'm sure there would be uproar.You hide behind facts and figures, you cherry pick information, for the sole purpose of running down the men of RAF Fighter Command.

I am in favour of a frank and open discussion of all aspects of Fighter Command, good and bad, there are plenty of both in equal measures. However this is not for you, not your style, you are driven by an obvious hatred of the RAF.

Typically of your type, you do not answer questions directed to you, smudger asked you a question, where are you, and what is your particularly interest.

On the subject, American friendly fire. Ask any Italian their opinion.

Coll

I cannot speak for our fellow members, but my inaction has nothing to do with my personal opinion in the matter. IMHO Six Nifties is not being fair to the RAF or the British, but that does not imply that I should act as a moderator.

Your host has no preference when it comes to the RAF or USAAF, if at all, he might lean towards the RAF!!

So lets keep it at that shall we...

May is in Spring I think.

That is an interesting figure, can you prove it?

Well, considering the German records are far from complete and accurate for the period it would be no wonder. Nonetheless I see losses by both units mentioned plus JG2 on that day that possibly could be linked to this combat. By the way, Johnnie Johnson's record was 34+7 destroyed, 3+4 probable and 10+3 damaged. Did you not confuse him with an another well known US ace?

I have to check what I have on this incident.

Why such asumption?

No.

At what period? I have some hundreds of incidents involving aircraft, artillery or own bombs and guns. For the period in which mentioned incidents occured there were few RAF incidents but there were also some USAAF incidents I did not mention.

Was Preddy downed by Britts as well?

Yes, and they downed about 1200 German aircraft at the same time. Not a bad record. Otherwise the list is not complete nor entirely accurate. Eg. Hurricane P3209 was actually V7209 and damaged not shot down.

? Which one and when?

It was Sky and introduced together with Sky spinner.

Roundels in the Far East had their red circles removed not reduced and I cannot imagine how they could have been similar to Japanese suns.
Another issue is that apparently you believe US did not modify their markings this way.

I have a couple of Mustangs downed by the other Mustangs, one of them crashed near Warsaw. I cannot give even an approximate number as I have not researched the period. Nonetheless silver 'camouflage' was generally considered an disadvantage - RAF considered it but found it not worth of effort.

Is it deliberate? Of course RAF scored victories post WWII though not in numbers - they were simply not involved in such wars.

OK, so how many such incidents on US side?

Ten killed it seems not much for such a large operation.

This incident seems not to be confirmed, at least in the way it was portrayed. Also, it was already mentioned on this board that Kozhedub's score is 63 and not 62.

I don't know what has been mentioned previously on thiws board, but I have a photo copy from Kozhedub's own logbook where it is easy to see that he achieved a total of 62 victories. I made a list based on that source on my Black Cross/Red Star site:

http://www.bergstrombooks.elknet.pl/bc-rs/koz.html

It's a pity that the prevailing anarchism which allows anyone to say almost anything on this site allows people like Franek and SixNifty to go rampant and waste a lot of space. Isn't it evident that when no one draws a limit, certain people will cross all limits, and we will see the kind of nonsense and mudslinging which Franek and SixNifty so often are engaged in. This might be an Off Topic post, but I see no reason to have moderators when moderation is not used. Franek's and SixNifty's posts contribute nothing, as usual there is no source reference, and these two guys are only occupied with each other. Why don't you guys post private messages to each other instead, and relieve us others from such nonsense? Or is there anyone who has learned anything on WW II aviation from Franek's and SixNifty's exchange of accusations in this thread?

Thanks Christer for the kind words, as usual.

Let me tell you again that my role is not one of school teacher.

When I start moderating I will do so across the board.

This is an effect of research of Russian team, namely Mikhail Bykov and Nikita Egorov (I hope i did not miss anybody) who are working in Russian archives on biographies of Soviet aces. They have found primary documents confirming 63 kills that were paid for. ;)

Apparently it is not correct. It is possible kills were added at a later date because Kozhedub was never credited with a kill of Me 262. There was a lenghty discussion on a airforce.ru forum and it is believed that if Kozhedub attacked anything, it was a Hs 293 drone.

That was some source reference! Maybe that is correct. I'll talk to them. Hadn't heard that. Also, the note on Kozhedub's claim on 19 February 1945 actually is illegible due to a tear in the paper. I thought it read "Me 262", but when I checked now I see that it could say almost anything. The note for 19 Feb 1945 says: "Sv. okhota - v [paper torn] - shturmovikov - 1 [illegible; paper damaged]"

I ran in to Six several years ago on the Onwar.com forum, where he was called Brokenclaw. His methods were exactly the same there, to take almost any post and turn it in to an attack on the British, friendly fire being his favourite topic.

Eventually the rest of the members got fed up enough that he left because of the derision he faced.

The same will be true here, I imagine.

In other words, don't worry about it. As time goes by, and his methods and tactics become ever more clear, the community will police itself.

...Who cares? The original topic was friendly fire.

I am not the least bit interested in Kozhedub or his victory claims, but, I have to ask -- do you have copies of gun camera films or other objective evidence that he shot down 62 planes?


Source references to what?

Speaking of nonsense, I picked up a copy of Arthy and Jessen's book on the Fw 190 in North Africa. After reading the mission summaries, it is very clear that your notion suggesting there was no shortage of fuel and did not limit Luftwaffe operations is, a complete fantasy.

But I would agree that fueling a five-plane air force is usually somewhat easier than fueling a 5,000 plane air force.

This not your message board. I will ignore your pathetic attempts to control the content. The same goes for Smudger and Coll. I will not be chased out of the forum by a rogue's gallery of hypocrites.

And Christer, I'll leave 'mudslinging' to you and Franek -- both of you are experten in that theatre of operations.

This thread has run it course, I'll take the opportunity to close it.

:roll: