Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum

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Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/index.php)

- Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/forumdisplay.php?f=8)

- - Me 109F development (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=524)

Jim P.

22nd February 2005 15:59

Quote:

Bf 109F-2 5405 - not an F?
Bf 109F-1 5615 - it is F-0 serial!
Bf 109F-1 5606 - it is F-0 serial!

109F WNr. start at 5401!!

WNr. 5615 and 5606 are listed as F-1s. Possibly similar to FW 190A-0s which were redesignated as A-1s (with or w/o mods?) when sent to the field. Is this another LW 'legend'? Like Ju 88A-4s and He 111H-6s in the BoB? Neither shows up in losses until mid-1941.

Franek Grabowski

22nd February 2005 20:14

Me 109F block starts at 5401?! Hmm, I have to check books again.
The Me 109F-0 myth? Apparently, but it seems only due to poor or incomplete research. As you can see, it is not known if 5615 and 5606 were F-0s, redesignated F-0s, converted to F-1s or just erroneous entry in documents. An F-0 is listed in 1942 with IV/JG1, is it another typo?
A major gap in 109 history I would say. Unfortunatelly.

christian

6th March 2005 13:04

Hi

Uffz. Lohmann (1./JG 51) had his first flight with the F-1 WNr.5640 on the 11. November 1940. He see that his Kapitän Oblt. Claus and his Rottenflieger was shot down from Spitfires. He dived up with his Rottenflieger, but his plane was damaged in the dive. He wrote his wings likes "Wellblech". I think the damage for the WNr.5640 14. November 1940 is a mistake, it was the 11.November 1940. He fly this plane on the 14. November 1940 to Regensburg, but make a emergency landing at Rockhausen due to fuel shortage. Next he fly the WNr.5629 from Regensburg to Mardyk (22. - 28. Novembe 1840). The next mission he fly the white 3, a F-1 on the 27. Januar 1941 and on the 09. Februar 1941 the white 4, a F-2.

Christian

P.S.
He fly the WNr.5640 from Regensburg over Köln (28. Oktober1940) to Pihen on the 31. Oktober 1940.

Falcon

6th March 2005 17:56

Wellblech = corrugated iron

Franek Grabowski

7th March 2005 10:03

Christian
Thanks for a very interesting information. Do you have Lohmann's account for the mentioned dog-fight?
PS I know what the 'wellblech' means but of course I cannot recall a proper English term at the moment. ;)

markojeras

7th March 2005 23:40

V25?

Please forgive me if this was mentioned here earlier, but have you seen photo on Falcon hangar (photo ID 4140) of possible V25? nose?

With best regards,

Marko

dora9forever

18th June 2007 09:05

Re: Me 109F development

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski (Post 2317)

Thanks Chris but what dates? There is a clear conflict between Prien/Rodeike and Mombeek. Also, are you able to determine from the log book when Moelders exchanged his F-0 to F-2? Had he any interrim Me 109E?
Also, you state that the Galland's old aircraft was lost, so what was the one shown on a photo in JG26 photo book on page 63? It is attributed there to von Holtey of Erg.Gr. JG 26?
Anybody can confirm that the first claim for 109F was filled on 13.02.1941 by 91 Sqn and the first destroyed was claimed by the same unit on 11.04.1941?

i thought georg claus of the jg 51 was shot down in a f model,on 11 11 40 in thames..
gary

George Hopp

18th June 2007 19:44

Re: Me 109F development

Quote:

I could not find much on the F-0, other than "... a preproduction batch of some twenty-five Bf 109 F-0 aircraft (W.Nr. 5601 to 5625) were completed over the next several months.... (page 4). "....Messerschmitt did not intend that the preproduction Bf 109 F-0s would be handed over to the Luftwaffe for operations....."

In his book on Regensburg, Peter Schmoll notes the following about the early 109Fs. 5601: CE+BM; 5602: CE+BN, V21; 5603: CE+BP, V23; 5604: VK+AB, V-24. Then he cites the numbers 5605: VK+AC, F-0, and 5622: PI+IK, F-0 and states that between 1939 and 1941, 16 109 F-0s were manufactured.

Then he goes on to note that the first batch of F-1s, 5626-5631: SG+GU-SG+GZ,and 5632-5657: SG+EA-SG+EZ, were manufactured during Oct-Nov 1940. Altogether, Regensburg manufactured 8 batches (2 of them single a/c) during the period Oct 1940 through March 1941. Then in March 1941 they also produced about 26 F-2s, producing them through September 1941, before switching to the G-1 in November 1941.

Hope this helps,
George

dora9forever

18th June 2007 19:47

Re: Me 109F development

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gielle (Post 2325)

Still in the Prien and Rodeike's work the WNr. 5628 is listed as F-1. There are a couple of pictures of the machine, one said to be taken in october 1940 where the Messer is still with its Stammkennzeichen SG+GW, just arrived to the Stab/JG 51.
They dismiss the F-0 issue with "there was presumably a small F-0 series", and according to them, the first loss of a Friedrick (a F-1) occurred on Nov 11 1940, when WNr 5635, flown by the Staffelkapitan of 1./JG51, Oblt. G. Claus failed to return from a sortie off the English coast.

HI, THANKS FOR INFO,GARY

dora9forever

19th June 2007 12:06

Re: Me 109F development

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski (Post 2324)

Now I am pretty confused!
I always thought that Moelders flew F-0, externally distinguishable by a 'square' air inlet. WNr 5628 suggests it was early F-1/2 rather than F-0 which are reported to be in 5601-5625 block (I have also seen refernce to only 10 pre-production aircraft). Anyone know what happenned to F-0s? One was listed in IV/JG1 as late as Spring 1942 but I am not sure if it was not a clerk's error.

Hi Frank molders did fly the f on 8th oct 40 as from some books a Lt amus was shot down in molders E model when combat was made Lt amus could not keep up,with the f0, staffels,planes and was shot down,made prisoner,
i Believe, molders shot 3 planes down, on 29th oct 40.with the f0.
Gary

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