Mustang I
 

Hello,
I have seen an photo from an crashed Mustang I.(Photo is not my property!)
The plane lost the Propeller when crased, but the rest is on good condiction. Only an X with the RAF Cocarde is cleary seen, the most interest fact is that Major Oesau JG 2, in flying cloth inspect the plane. The cockpit is closed and the are no battle damage seen. Any chance to give an date of loss? and the fate of its Pilot?
Bests,#h.

Re: Mustang I
 

I thought we might get a date if Oesau downed the plane, but he has no listed kill for a P-51.

Re: Mustang I
 

I think the "X" is the only marking on the plane! What Sqn. used this kind of identification? The Mustang lying in an cornfield, the corn is green, so I think it must be about May or June. On the right wing standing two Luftwaffen soldiers, they looks like from an Flak Unit.Oesau an the other Pilot carry the heay lightgrey colour leader jackets with dark fure. Oh, on the backside of the photo is handwritten "Spitfire" and "Major Oesau"! But it is an Mustang I.
h.

Re: Mustang I
 

Is it this Mustang I?

Re: Mustang I
 

Yes this is the Mustang! I'm sure there are more photo's taken.
h.

Re: Mustang I
 

See the carb intake above the engine, Allison powered.

Re: Mustang I
 

For the later part of the war the Army Air Co-operation/Fighter Reconnaissance squadrons didn't carry squadron codes on their Mustangs.

Re: Mustang I
 

Since Oesau visited the airplane, the date of his crash must have been before March 1944

Re: Mustang I
 

Hans,

this looks like a still image of a footage. Probably a footage for the Wochenschau. This may explain the presence of Major Oesau.

The grain in the field looks like a June/July growth.

If the landscape is in Germany, Niederrhein and Münsterland are my favorites.

What's about the church in the background ?. There is a road in the background, too, which is led by regular set poles.

But my most favorated fact is the possibility of a Wochenschau Footage.

best wishes !

Horst Weber

Re: Mustang I
 

Good evening,

I've seen this photo elsewhere, captioned with Mustang I, AG661 of 400.Sqdn (F/L Wilfred Herman Gordon) on 6th July 1943 near Glos-la-Ferrière. At least the spire in the background matches with Saint-Agnan...

Regards,

Heuser

Re: Mustang I
 

Hello,

We Have the following:

The Mustang had proved itself to be ideally suited to low-level reconnaissance and ground strafing sorties., but its pilots were still very concerned with being recognised when approaching enemy target (German airfield and ground defence flak having been recognised as the toughest opposition that the Allied aircraft had met). Therefore, in May 1943* the two Sky painted code letters which identified the squadron(s) to which the aircraft belonged were painted out leaving just a single letter, which was the aircraft call-letter for instance R for Roger.

See:
Camouflage & Markings R.A.F. Fighter Command 1936-1945 - North American Mustang Fighters.
Goulding,James & Robert Jones.
London: Ducimus Books,1970-1971.
pp.34 & 36.

* The code letters were re-intsated during March 1944.

So, if Oesau is in the photograph, the date must be between April 1943 and May 1944.

Col.

Re: Mustang I
 

It looks like Heuser is correct. From the RAF Command Web page we have the following:

"F/Lt Gordon W.H. (H.H.??) a RCAF pilot who evaded capture the 02/06/1943 he was on Mustang I 400 Sqn AG661 code X Shot down by 11./JG 2 and belly landed SW of Glos-la-Ferrière at 17:05"

Re: Mustang I
 

AG 661 was considered Cat E on 2 June 1943. The a/c had two prior accidents on 15 July 1942 and 16 October 1942. Both accidents were with P/O H E Hanton (RCAF) who was flying with 400Sq. I trust that this helps a bit. Ted51

Re: Mustang I
 

Hello,
This photo apeares in the LEMB Forum along with a second one which shows her raised on her u/c.
Note the weaponry, three in each wing and two that fire through the prop.
Indeed this was if I recall, then said to be AG661, manufacturer's serial number 73-3413. One of the first contract of Mustangs under the Lend-Lease sceme.
Pilot F/Lt. W. H.Gordon evaded.
Alex

Re: Mustang I
 

On June 2, 1943 Ofw Herbert Gumprecht of 11./JG 2 claimed two P-51:

1702 hrs south of Epinay-sur-Odon and
1705 hrs southwest of Glos-la-Ferrière.

Sources:
OKL Fighter Claims 1943 (Tony Wood),
Jagdfliegerverbände Teil 10/IV, pages 433 and 444.

Regards
Leo

Re: Mustang I
 

Hello,

Go to: http://rcafassociation.ca/heritage/search-awards/ enter J5695 in Search Keyword box.

Col.

Re: Mustang I
 

Good evening all:
AG 661 was lost on 2 June 1943 when W H Gordon evaded capture. the aircraft history card lists this as Cat E. Prior to this the aircraft had 2 accidents on 15 July 1942 and 16 October 1942 both with He Hanton (RCAF). the aircraft apparently was with 400Sq for it's entire combat deployment. I trust that this adds just a bit more to the 'rest of the story. Ted51

Re: Mustang I
 

Here is a "zoomed" street view showing the church tower.

https://www.google.com/maps/@48.8497...7i13312!8i6656

I think the plane was in the field to the left of the road D656.

The street view is at location 48.8497953,0.592431 looking NNE along the road and then zoomed toward the horizon. If you move closer to the church along the road, the trees eventually block the view of the church tower. You can see the "notched" roof line to the right of the tower, both in the original photo and in the Google Street View.

Re: Mustang I
 

Please correct me if I am wrong ...I have always assumed the aircraft on its wheels was aircraft V OF THE SAME SQUADRON my belief comes from the attached pic and the condition of the undercarrage one leg has fairing attached and one does not same as in your pic of which I have a copy

Re: Mustang I
 

Hello,
AG661 was coded "X"
These latest photo's show aircraft with code "V".
So not the same aircraft.
However the photo of the a/c on wheels could show the a/c on wheels in the LEMB taken after the outer section of wing is removed.
Or
That both "X" and "V" suffered the same fate re landing and German recovery treatment ?
Also the handwriting, to me looks to be not the same hand.

Alex

Re: Mustang I
 

Other points that were taken in to consideration when id ing the aircraft as V was the state of the canopy on X it is in "good" condition on V it is totally smashed,
Engine cowling on X is shown as "loose" on your pic of it on its wheels (copy attached )it is secure. later during the "recovery" its missing..
there are other points

Re: Mustang I
 

I think you will find that 'V' is AP212 of 268Sqn which was flown by P/Off Tony Bethell on 7/12/42 when it crashed near Bergen in Holland. Many will know that Bethell was a famous participant in the "Great Escape" story I believe he died quite recently...

Steve

Re: Mustang I
 

No I did not know but thanks for the info it completes the picture

Re: Mustang I
 

The first pair of photos show AP212 'V' of No.268 Squadron, which was flown by F/O Tony Bethell and shot down by flak near Bergen on 7 December 1942. The damage in those photos match other photos taken of this Mustang soon after it crashed, in particular the damage to the vertical tail leading edge and behind the cockpit, plus the absence of the port wing. The second supposed photo of 'V' - Mustang on its undercarriage - I do not think is AP212, due to the fact the port wing is still attached and other clues in the photo. In the other known photos of AP212 'V' taken in December 1942 at its crash site near Bergen showing it from multiple angles, it is shown on very close cropped ground, winter in the Netherlands, no growth, and there are no trees close to the crash site. In the photo of 'V' on its undercarriage it has a left wing and reasonably longish growth on the ground, plus trees with foliage relatively close to the aircraft. There is also to my eye, in comparing the photos of AP212 'V' soon after the crash that I have, differences in the damage to the nose area in the picture of 'V' on its undercarriage. I suspect two different Mustangs.

Also a point of correction to an earlier post. Army Co-operation Command dropped Squadron identification letters from their Mustangs from November 1942 and they did not return during the war. Only the individual aircraft id letter was displayed on the Tac/R Mustangs for the remainder of the war and immediate post war period. By the time the last of the Allison Mustangs left the last Squadron using them operationally post War, being No.268 Squadron, up until August 1945, they still only carried the individual aircraft id letter. The Spitfire FR.XIVes which had first supplemented and then replaced the Mustangs on the Squadron, also only carried individual aircraft id letters until around late September to early October 1945 when Squadron identification letters started to be re-implemented in the post-War Tac/R Squadrons remaining in Germany.

Re: Mustang I
 

Hello,
So to confirm ?

The photo in post#4 is "X", AG661.
The photo in post#19 is "V", AP212.
The photo in post #21 is "X", AG661.

Alex

Re: Mustang I
 

I am sure that Colin will have his own views and I should have been more clear in my post #22. In my view the photo on post #21 shows neither AP212 nor AG661. The canopy on AP212 has not been smashed up it has been jettisoned by the pilot and it has hit the leading edge of the tailfin.
Steve

Re: Mustang I
 

I think post #21 is the same plane as #4 (i.e. X AG661). Look carefully at the exhaust pipes.
The first pipe seems to be gone in both photos, then next one seems to be battered or twisted so that it opens toward the front. Only the remaining 4 pipes are in the correct position.
That seems to be the same in both photos and the damage to the 2nd pipe seems identical (at least to me) in both pictures.

The other item to observe is the 3 trees (on the horizon) that appear just in front of the cockpit in picture 4 and just over the outer machine gun port on the right wing of picture 21. From left to right there is the lowest tree with a flat top that steps down to the right. Then a space to the middle tree which is the tallest of the group. It has a pointed top, but with a wider point then the last tree on the right. This last tree is also shorter than the middle tree but it is taller than the first tree.

Look closely and you can see that the middle tree has a small bulge toward the left, about even with the level of the right side step of the left most tree. If you study the two views of these 3 trees in picture 4 and 21, I would claim you are looking at the same three trees.

Re: Mustang I
 

RSwank you are correct...I jumped too quickly...concentrating on the cockpit area! Well done.

Re: Mustang I
 

A neat puzzle and well solved, good eyes, Swank

but to make it more complicate as it still is, one question:

In John Rawlings book "Fighter Squadrons of the RAF and their aircraft" neither No. 400 SQ nor No. 268 SQ shows up.

In Norman L. R. Franks "Fighter Command Losses of the Second World War", Vol. 2, the loss of MUSTANG I, s/n AP212 (No. 268 SQ on December 7th, 1942), is not mentioned, but the loss of MUSTANG I, s/n AG661 (No. 400 SQ on June 2nd, 1943) shows up in the book.

What could be the reason ?
Best wishes !

Horst Weber

Re: Mustang I
 

The reason why neither No.400 Squadron or No.268 Squadron RAF show up in Rawlings book, is that they are not fighter Squadrons, but Army Co-operation Squadrons. They appear therefore in "Coastal, Support and Special Squadrons of the RAF and their Aircraft" by Rawlings. Similarly, for the Franks book, until the Army Co-operation Command Squadrons were temporarily transferred to Fighter Command on1 June 1943, before they were transferred to 2TAF when it was formed, they did not fall within the parameters for his books on Fighter Command losses. After 1 June 1943 date, you will see losses for these Squadrons listed in the Franks books.

Think of them if you will as Reconnaissance squadrons flying armed fighter type aircraft, primarily at low level.

Quite a list of Squadrons flying the Allison engined Mustangs (and earlier Curtiss Tomahawks) that do not appear in the Franks books until after 1 June 1943.

Re: Mustang I
 

Colin !

Thanks for the explanation. It makes sence !.

Horst Weber

Re: Mustang I
 

Hello,

in the boocklet "Strangers in a Strange Land" H.H. Stafer(?)Squadron Signal where photos from an "Beuteluftpark" near Paris showing photos from an Mustang I in relativ good condition. But I don't have the book! Maybe on of the users here?
h.

Re: Mustang I
 

You mean this one??

Re: Mustang I
 

Reported to have been AM180, "B" 22nd July 1943.
But see here -

http://www.rafcommands.com/archive/18860.php

FCL vol 2 has on page 111 that it is AM183, Popular Sortie , Ypres (Ieper ) area,pm.
F/O. L.W. Bennett POW.
Alex

Re: Mustang I
 

Hi
I always wish that there were more photos taken of this hall,
An SD lysander and a typhoon in the background, and i wonder what else ?
cheers
jerry

Re: Mustang I
 

A Hampden PL-M P1250 (reported as)
Parts of a B-17 ---229788 aircraft L
and parts of a Lancaster (turret)