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-   -   Allied daylight claims of a He219 ? (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=27365)

Marcel Hogenhuis 28th October 2011 02:11

Allied daylight claims of a He219 ?
 
Hello all,

At the Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces part of this TOCH, there is a thread about a He219 wreck in the Skagerak, just north of the Danish northern coast line.

A rough estimate about its likely crash date, would be "after September 1944" because this wreck has tyres with (copied) US type profile.

My question is therefore if anyone knows of Allied (daylight?) claims over this area related to a He219 ? It might be that such a claim is known for years but - without a documented loss - has been put aside all those years as 'uncredible'. Perhaps there is a match.

All the best, Marcel Hogenhuis (He219 research project)

For confidential replies: marcelhogenhuis[at]gmail.com

mhuxt 28th October 2011 06:27

Re: Allied daylight claims of a He219 ?
 
Might also have been claimed as a 110...

Marcel Hogenhuis 28th October 2011 18:41

Re: Allied daylight claims of a He219 ?
 
Hello Mark,

Could be possible but at daylight recognition should be expected better I guess...

All the best, Marcel

Graham Boak 28th October 2011 22:10

Re: Allied daylight claims of a He219 ?
 
Consider how many Allied aircraft were shot down by other Allied aircraft. Aircraft recognition was not as easy for a wartime pilot as it is for us chairbound enthusiasts. The He219 cannot have been a well-known type to the Allies.

Jaap Woortman 28th October 2011 22:38

Re: Allied daylight claims of a He219 ?
 
Here a recognition sheet of the RAF of the He 219 issued June 1st, 1944.
It was the second issue.
Although the drawing was not 100% perfect, the type was known with the crews.

Jaap

SES 29th October 2011 11:54

Re: Allied daylight claims of a He219 ?
 
Hi,
The skies of the Skagerak were a fairly busy place in late 1944. Due to heavy German shipping activity, the allies flew numerous anti-shipping missions in the area. A hapless He219 (on transit to/from Norway) could have been caught in the middle of this.
bregds
SES

Laurent Rizzotti 30th October 2011 12:57

Re: Allied daylight claims of a He219 ?
 
From the extensive site "Air war over Denmark" by Soren Flensted, on 21 May 1944 a He 219 was shot down by a Mosquito on a Day Ranger and claimed as a "LeO 45".

The only two other He 219 listed on this site were lost due to accidents without enemy action.

Marcel Hogenhuis 31st October 2011 14:40

Re: Allied daylight claims of a He219 ?
 
Dear Jaap, Michaël and Laurent,

Many thanks for your thoughts and comments: as this He219 wreck has been found in the shallow waters of the northern coast of Denmark, it bears no relation to the crashes already known which makes it quite a challenge to find its identity.

We will keep the TOCH and other forums informed! All the best, Marcel

SMF144 1st November 2011 05:51

Re: Allied daylight claims of a He219 ?
 
Here are some of the basic details.

Two Mosquitoes VI of No.418 Squadron, RCAF along with 8 Mustangs of No. 19 Sqdn., RAF as escort carried out a Day Ranger to Aalborg and Grove airfields in Denmark, time up/down: 1358 - 1830. They put in a claim for one LeO 45 destroyed and one LeO 45 shared with the Mustangs. Time of attack 1630. Place/area of attack: South of Herning, Denmark.

Stephen

SES 1st November 2011 08:51

Re: Allied daylight claims of a He219 ?
 
Hi,
Thanks a lot, but it does not match the location of the wreck. which is located in the Skagerak more than 100 km away.
bregds
SES

Delmenhorst 2nd November 2011 15:43

Re: Allied daylight claims of a He219 ?
 
Why does it have to be a daylight claim ??

Marcel Hogenhuis 2nd November 2011 17:22

Re: Allied daylight claims of a He219 ?
 
Hello Delmenhorst,

You are right: it doesn't neccessarily have been a daylight victory but...

1) for a nocturnal claim one would expect that it was claimed by one of the many Mosquito's chasing around and Mark Huxtable's magnificent work about Mosquito claims gives no hits (yet)
2) a lucky rear gunner's claim is also possible but I have no knowledge about their successes in this phase of the war. Before seeking the proverbial needle in the haystack, I tried option 3
3) giving the limitations of no 1 and 2, it was worth trying - even if that sounds pretty desperate - to hear if someone had an 'Eureka' moment about He219 claims by daylight.

All the best, Marcel

SES 2nd November 2011 18:09

Re: Allied daylight claims of a He219 ?
 
Have we looked in NJ War diaries Vol 2 ?
bregds
SES

Delmenhorst 3rd November 2011 20:27

Re: Allied daylight claims of a He219 ?
 
yes

Marcel Hogenhuis 7th November 2011 11:19

Re: Allied daylight claims of a He219 ?
 
Hello Carsten,

At the moment I see not many other opportunities to identify which He219 crashed at the northern coast of Denmark, but I will do my best to help where possible: as the wreck is sometimes covered by sand and sometimes not, I hope that a moment comes that the remains could be salvaged for further inspection and/or (partial) restauration because the sole survivor is in the USA.

As it seems now, the parts which could lead to its identification are either missing or not accessible, so Plan B would be identifying the subtype first, I guess (unless you have knowledge about this plane, I haven't).

All the best from Venlo, Marcel

Delmenhorst 7th November 2011 18:38

Re: Allied daylight claims of a He219 ?
 
Hi Marcel

We have a couple of combats at night in 1945 where the British claims does not correspond with German information.

I think that Jörn and I will spend an evening together and go through them. I am right now very, very buzy at work and do not have access to all my files. It will take me a couple of weeks.

Nick Beale 3rd April 2012 21:59

Re: Allied daylight claims of a He219 ?
 
1 Attachment(s)
ULTRA message about the He 219 lost on 21 May 1944, file HW5/488, message CX/MSS/R.195(C) para. 49A ...

SES 3rd April 2012 22:14

Re: Allied daylight claims of a He219 ?
 
Hi Nick,
That is the incident mentioned in post # 9, date and location match.
bregds
SES

Nick Beale 3rd April 2012 22:53

Re: Allied daylight claims of a He219 ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SES (Post 145632)
Hi Nick,
That is the incident mentioned in post # 9, date and location match.
bregds
SES

Hi. I thought that the purpose of the Heinkel's flight was interesting. I don't think I've seen that mentioned before.

Tony Kambic 5th April 2012 21:07

Re: Allied daylight claims of a He219 ?
 
From Remp's book on the HE-219, the 21/5/44 HE-219 A-0 loss was wrk nm 190107 G9+FL at 1700 hrs., although he lists the crew Tampke and Tanbs as WIA.

The divers have resumed descending to the HE-219 off the Danish coast, and went down with a side scan sonar device to search for the tail. He reports that there was zero visibility in the water and unfortunately the sonar device failed, so they ascended without results and now are awaiting the sonar to be repaired. He also said is was very cold 2-3 degrees C.


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