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Bf 109E rate of roll

Hello!
The title says it all! I'm looking for the rate of roll of the 109E.
Can aynone help me?
Thanks.

Chris

Re: Bf 109E rate of roll

Hi Christian, Butch2K forum: http://www.allaboutwarfare.com is probably the best place to ask about such technical things... You will get the graphic curve...

Re: Bf 109E rate of roll

here is what i have, cant tell you the original sources indeed... Both state that the 109E got a better roll rate than the Spitfire up to 325 mph indicated airspeed...

Re: Bf 109E rate of roll

Arg! Post a wrong one on the previous answer

Re: Bf 109E rate of roll

The second one certainly doesn't show the 109 as superior to the Spitfire - quite the reverse. It shows that at lower spreeds the Spitfire is superior to all others, with only the Fw 190 superior until very high speeds are reached.

Are these two graphs showing a difference between the fabric and metal ailerons?

Re: Bf 109E rate of roll

Otherwise interesting but what bothers me on the third graph is that I have seen otherwise same graph but without those curves of Spit 1a, Bf 109E4 and Hurricane. The header is same, explanations same. And it seems to me that the curves of just those 3 have been marked by a different style than the others. And the other curves are marked identically to those in the other graph. Strange. I mean that those 3 curves might well be right but I doubt that they can be found from Figure 47 of the NACA Report 868.

Juha

Re: Bf 109E rate of roll

They look different, Juha, because they were added after the others. As you noted, the original graph does not include the 3 a/c you mentioned.

I find the difference between the roll-rate for the Spitfire 1a and the "Spitfire" very interesting. It's hard to believe it's the same type of aircraft. Would metal ailerons make that great a difference in roll-rate?

Re: Bf 109E rate of roll

Hello George
The metal ailerons were a vast improvement. From Quill's Spitfire. A Test Pilot's Story. Arrow Books (1990) p. 182.
When he flew a Spit R6718 with metal skinned ailerons first time on 7 Nov 40 "...they changed the situation in the most spectacular way, being much lighter at the top end of the speed range without any loss of effectiveness at low or medium speeds. The aeroplane was transformed..." at Farnborough "where it was flown by Willy Wilson (OC Aerodynamics Flight) and Roly Falk and they reported a 'vast improvement on anything so far tested'; 'excellent control'..."

What bothers me is the big difference in low and medium speeds on the 3rd graph between the curve of Spitfire (original) and the added curve of Spitfire1a. From Quill and other sources I have gathered that the metal skinned ailerons improved vastly the rate of roll of Spit at high speeds but I cannot remember any reports where there has been claims on vast improvements at low or even medium speeds. I don't have time to check Morgan's & Shacklady's Spit tome.

So I have doubts on the curve of Spitfire 1a and because of that I would not place too much confidence on the curve of Bf 109E4 either. It might be OK but I would like to see some confirmation on its authenticity.

Juha

Re: Bf 109E rate of roll

Source is J. Smith:The Developement of the Spitfire and Seafire (Royal Aeronautical Society)