Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hi Mike

Yes please, I would like to know what you have. I note that a P-51 pilot from the 309th FS claimed a Me210 - and that this was possibly a Mosquito from 151 Squadron RAF. Any advance on this would be appreciated.

Thanks also, Tundra, for your lengthy contribution - much appreciated.

Cheers
Brian

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Bob Collis

Please Contact Me Via This Website - I Can't Reply To Your Private Messages.

Brian

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hi Brian:

151 Squadron or 157 Squadron? In either case, do you have a date which I might match to a list of mossie losses?

Cheers,

Mark

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hi Mark

I believe it was a 151 Squadron aircraft lost on 6 August 1944, but I haven't had chance to check the ORB yet. Any info you may have will be appreciated. Thanks.

May I take this opportunity to thank all of you wonderful guys who have so generously responded and contributed to my many requests for help - and to wish you all a Happy Christmas and Prosperous and Healthy New Year.

Cheers and bottoms up
Brian

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Brian- if you would E-mail me I have the whole story and mission report of
this incident. My Father, John C. Howell, was on this mission.
357th FG , 364th Sq. C5 - L " Shoo Shoo Baby"
Mike Howell
mhowell590@aol.com

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hi Brian:

There was a 151 Squadron loss that day, but as far as I can see, the crew were lost to flak while attacking rail targets, with this being witnessed by another 151 Squadron crew.

ORB is pretty much transcribed here:

http://www.151squadron.org.uk/

The 157 Sqn aircraft I was thinking of was lost on 9 September 1944 off Lowestoft, apparently to a 109, but I've not been able to find a matching claim. I thought it might have been a 51.

Perhaps you're thinking of the 107 Sqn incident on 28 March '44?

Cheers,

Mark

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hi Mark

You've made my Christmas with another incident unrecorded by me!! Do please understand that I am still researching this period and have no had time to devote to processing all squadrons ORBs etc at this stage, hence the many gaps in what was sadly a period of many misidentifications, as you are no doubt aware. Anyway, I haven't any information on the 157 Squadron Mosquito loss to a 109/P-51 for 9 September 1944, so would appreciate what you have uncovered, please. But do let the Christmas pud digest first!!

Re the 28 March shooting down of the 107 Squadron Mosquito - I believe the culprit may have been Lt Charles Anderson of 335th. Are you able to confirm this?

Thanks again for taking the time to help - have a good Christmas and New Year.

Brian

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hi Brian:

Urrrm, I don't want to put a damper on Xmas, but you should understand that the 157 Sqn / P-51 incident is pure speculation on my part.

Seems like a strange place and time for a 109 to be, couldn't find a matching claim, so I'm speculating it might have been a 51, nothing more.

I'm still trying to find details of an incident in which a P-61 attacked and shot down a Mosquito - do you know whether this was 28/29 September? Chris Shores has a 21 Sqn. Mosquito listed as "sdbAf" on this date - "shot down by Allied fire"?

Should have some other P-61 stuff around here somewhere if you like.

Cheers,

Mark

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hi Mark

Mosquito NT179 of 21 Sqn to which you refer was shot down by 219 Squadron Mosquito HK250 on 28/29 Sepetmber 1944.

I have had a quick check and have found that a P-61 attacked and damaged a 488 Squadron Mosquito on 26 June 1944, though Mossie was able to land safely. No idea which US crew was responsible. I also have note of two other Mossies that fell to Allied night fighters about which I lack detail, so either, neither or both may have been P-61 victims.

16/17 June 1944 Mosquito of 409 Squadron shot down and POW.
6/7 March 1945 Mosq MM237 of 105 Sqn - crew injured.

I hope to get to Kew next week and will have a look at 157 Squadron's ORB more more details of the Mossie loss on 8 September 1944. Thanks for the lead anyway.

Cheers
Happy New Year
Brian

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hi guys

Thought you'd like a break from all this serious research. Hope no one is offended!

Jed had been in the liquor business for 25 years. Finally, sick of the stress, he quit his job and bought 50 acres of land in Alaska as far from humanity as possible. He saw the postman once a week and got groceries once a month. Otherwise, it was total peace and quiet. After about six months of almost total isolation, someone knocked on his door. He opened it and a huge, bearded man was standing there.
"Name's Lars, your neighbor from forty miles up the road. Having a New Year's Eve party Friday night...thought you might like to come. About 5:00."
"Great", says Tom, "after six months out here I'm ready to meet some local folks. Thank you."
As Lars left, he stopped.
"Gotta warn you......be some drinkin'."
"Not a problem" says Tom. "After 25 years in the business, I can drink with the best of 'em."
Again, the big man started to leave and stopped.
"More 'n' likely gonna be some fightin', too."
"Well, I get along with people; I'll be all right. I'll be there Thanks again."
"More'n likely be some wild sex, too!"
"Now that's really not a problem," says Tom, warming to the idea "I've been all alone for six months! I'll definitely be there. By the way, what should I wear?"
"Don't much matter ..... Just gonna be the two of us ..."

.............

FINALLY ... a seasonal recipe:

1 cup of water 1 tsp baking soda 1 cup of sugar 1 tsp salt 1 cup or brown sugar 4 large eggs 1 cup nuts 2 cups of dried fruit 1 bottle Jose Cuervo Tequila.
Sample the Cuervo to check quality. Take a large bowl, check the Cuervo again, to be sure it is of the highest quality, pour one level cup and drink.

Turn on the electric mixer... Beat one cup of butter in a large fluffy bowl.

Add one teaspoon of sugar. Beat again. At this point it's best to make sure the Cuervo is still OK, try another cup..just in case.

Turn off the mixerer thingy. Break 2 leggs and add to the bowl and chuck in the cup of dried fruit, Pick the xxxx fruit off the floor..

Mix on the turner. If the fried druit gets stuck in the beaterers just pry it loose with a drewscriver. Sample the Cuervo to check for tonsisticity.

Next, sift two cups of salt, or something. Who giveshz a sheet. Check the Jose Cuervo. Now shift the lemon juice and strain your nuts.. Add one table. Add a spoon of sugar, or somefink. Whatever you can find. Greash the oven.

Turn the cake tin 360 degrees and try not to fall over. Don't forget to beat off the turner. Finally, throw the bowl through the window, finish the Cose Juervo and make sure to put the stove in the dishwasher.

Smile!
Brian

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Apologies to one and all. Seems like I should have put more water in my whisky! My attempt to brighten up the day seems to have been a miserable failure! Never mind, once bitten , twice shy.

Back to business: WHERE ARE YOU NIKITA? Did you receive my e-mail? WHERE ARE YOU SIX NIFTY? My e-mails to you were returned!

All the best for 2006

Brian

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hi
might be of interest

L9809 3 otu beaufort shot down 17-6-41 by 504Sq hurricane nr shute
R8811 266 sq typhoon damaged by spitfires, exeter & abandoned 17-4-43
v5568 1401flt blenheim shot down by whirlwind 137Sq 27-05-42
cheers
jerry

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

I am aware of two in the 355th FG. First was April 26, 1944. Bob Boulet in 354FS WR-E was hit by 'friendly' B-17's and forced to bail to become POW.

The second was September 18,1944 on the Frantic VII mission to drop supplies on Polish underground. Robert Peters was shot down and died of wounds by another 358FS pilot while Peters was shooting down an Bf 109G..

I haven't read through the rest of the thread but John Godfrey of 4th FG was shot down by another 4FG pilot shooting at same a/c on the ground.

Regards,

Bill Marshall

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Brian - PS I do know which 358FS pilot shot down Robert Peters, but out of respect for his family and the survivors of Peter's family I choose not to reveal the name.

The story was pretty sad as the daughter of Peters in searching for the "why and how' discovered an eyewitness to subsequent events. Apparently Peters was mortally wounded but under full control of his YF-X and landed wheels down in a field. Polish farmers rushed to his smoking Mustang to provide assistance, but intercepted by German soldiers who formed a ring around the P-51 but made no effort to approach. Peters allegedly waved to the Polish farmers and after a couple of minutes slumped down in the cockpit and died... how would you like to get THAT letter.

Regards,

Bill Marshall

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Bill
Sorry, but I have read a little bit different story. The pilot who downed Peters visited the family just after the war and expressed his heartiest regret. Reputedly they apparently forget his name. A few years ago they were contacted by a man (Jerzy Boć?) who researched both 355 crashes in the area and I presume it was at the time they learned exact circumstances.
As yet I was unable to identify the German unit involved. A few years ago I have heard story of a German pilot visiting the crashsite in 1990s - I supose he downed Vigna. According to a one account a German pilot landed at a nearby airfield (likely Chrcynne near Nasielsk, now still in use for ultralights and skydiving) and rode to the crashsite.
Another US airman was murdered by Germans during the mission, this being one of the cremembers of B-17 We'll be seeing you which crashed at Dziekanów Leśny on Northern suburbs of Warsaw. This Fortress was claimed by JG51.

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Probably just missed during the happy season, no harm done by having a little fun!

Regards,

EDIT - Both jokes certainly made me laugh once I read them!

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

I respect your difference of opinion but the only part of the story that will sustain a 'difference' is whether the story of the pilot on the ground was in fact left to die as described in the letter to Peters daughter. I read the letter and repeated as closely as I recall the facts.

As to the rest of the story - my father, Bert Marshall, led the 355th FG on that mission, a reinforced group of 4 Squadrons/64P-51's, some borrowed from 361st and 4th. He and Billy Hovde were very close friends. Hovde was leading Blue Flight of the 358FS and one of the pilots in his flight first came to him after Frantic VII and admitted shooting down Peters after a 109 shot down Vigna on Peters wing while Peters was shooting down another 109.

I was personally in this discussion more than once while growing up in a community of fighter pilots and reviewed the details once again for my book about the 355th with Billy - then decided not to include the data in the book.

Warm Regards,

Bill Marshall

This part is not debatable.

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

some photos of Frantic VII

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Bill
I cannot agree or disagree, I have just read an article. If you like, I may put you in touch with people, who possibly know Mr Boć.
I understand your decision not to reveal the name, although a recent research indicates friendly-fire was nothing unordinary or even a quite common cause of losses.
Your Frantic photos are just stunning, breathless!

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Thanks Franek - I believe I read the letter (if Mr Boc is the author) to his daughter and may have a copy somewhere.. I sent quite a few photos to her (daughter) a couple of years ago and put her in touch with several 358FS pilots that flew with Peters.

Bill

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Some more cases, issued from the JG 54 loss list from the late Günther Rosipal:

9 January 1942
The Bf 109 F-2 WNr 12647 of 3./JG 54, flown by Gefr. Gustav Haubner, was shot down in error by German Flak and crashed near Krasnogwardeisk airfield, killing its pilot.

22 March 1943
Uffz. Josef Guth of 3./JG 54 was attacked in error by a Bf 109 of II./JG 54 in Russia (Pl. Qu. 9036) and bailed out wounded from his Fw 190 A-4 Wnr (14)5760.

14 May 1943
Oblt. Rudolf Klemm, an ace of 9./JG 54, claimed his 25th victory (a B-24 shot down at Rieseby, 8 km N Eckernförde) during the interception of an American raid on Kiel but his Bf 109 G-4 WNr 16144 10 + ^^ yellow was then shot down by his own Flak and destroyed at 100%. Klemm was wounded, blinding him in one eye. Despite this handicap, Klemm returned to combat duty some weeks later and survived the war with 42 victories.

12 November 1943
Luftflotte 6 dispatched all available aircraft, a total of 215 sorties, despite the poor weather conditions, to the Nevel area. The Russians had broken through and were heavily supporting the advance with ground-attack aircraft. This was to be Walter Nowotny's last combat mission on the Eastern front, and Uffz Karl Schnörrer of Stab I./JG 54 flew as his wingman. Nowotny attacked a Russian Il-2 Sturmovik ground-attack aircraft and shot it down for his 255th victory. A second Il-2 attacked Nowotny's Fw 190 but Schnörrer managed to bring down this Il-2 for his 35th, and last, victory with JG 54. Schnörrer's Fw 190 A-5 (W.Nr. 410 021 green 2) then received hits from another Il-2, or from German Flak according to another source. He baled out of his blazing Fw 190 at an altitude of no more than 50 to 70 meters. The parachute deployed only a few meters above the ground. German soldiers rescued the badly injured pilot, who had suffered broken legs and a skull fracture. Having recovered from his wounds, Leutnant Schnörrer was then assigned to Erprobungskommando 262 in June 1944, flying the Me 262 jet fighter.

31 January 1944
Fw Heinrich Brücher of JG 54 was killed by his own Flak at Towaschewo. No more details.

6 November 1944
FhjUffz. Günther Kurz of 12./JG 54 was killed when German Flak shot down in error his Fw 190 D-9 WNr 210012 (TS+SL, red 7+) over the airfield of Achmer.

Source:
JG 54 loss list, by Günther Rosipal (http://www.jg54greenhearts.com/LossList.htm)
http://www.luftwaffe.cz/klemm.html
http://www.luftwaffe.cz/schnorrer.html

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hi Brian,

Don't know if you have seen my post here

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=3657

I'm trying to find out the ID of the Gladiators involved in attacking and damaging a Seagull from HMAS Sydney.

Alex

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

I thought it was cute, so don't apologize. Everyone has to relax once in a while, so why not with good whisky and a riske joke.

And a Happy New Year to you Brian,
George

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hi everyone who has been contributing for the last three weeks or so!

As you may be aware I suffered a disastrous PC crash and now have a new machine. Fortunately, most of my files have been retrieved although I have lost some, particularly my updated Friendly Fire file! I am sure you all sympathise with me, apart from those wise guys who save their information on a daily basis. I intend to join those ranks but am a forgetful type!

I will now endeavour to catch of on the posts. In the meantime, thanks

Brian

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hi Brian, sorry for your crash. My advice will be to buy a big USB device to store 500 or 1000 Meg of data in it, so you can save daily without losing much time.

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hi Laurent

Thanks for the advice. Please let me have your address to enable me to send the book (recent events have thrown my intentions askew!). Private mail if you so wish.

Cheers
Brian

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

A new case:

7 October 1944

Allied aircraft strafed in error Montepetra, Italy, killing 10 civilians and 7 English soldiers.
Source:
http://www.criad.unibo.it/isr-forlicesena/storia/biografie.html

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Many thanks Laurent, I am now doing a quick Italian language course so that I can read it!! Excuse sarcasm!

One of my previous enquiries concerned a P-38 shot down in error by airfield defences at A.2 ALG near Grand-Camp-les-Bains on the Normandy coast on 25 June 1944. This is recorded in Richard Turner's BIG FRIEND, LITTLE FRIEND. I haven't made much progress re the identity of the pilot or unit, but believe it would have been one of teh following. Does anyone have the relevant MACRs that could establish idenitity?

P-38s all from 370thFG are recorded as lost on this date:
42-104016 (MACR 6181)
42-67282 (MACR 6182)
42-67930 (MACR 6183)
42-67886 (MACR 6184)
42-4196 (MACR 6229)
42-68023 (MACR 6268)
42-67927 (MACR 6270)
Also, 367thFG lost 43-28702 (MACR 6350)
And, 82ndFG lost 43-28774 (MACR6429

If no one has the info I am looking for, perhaps by process of elimination, I will narrow down the enquiry.

Thanks in advance.

Brian

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

If the P-38 was shot down above Allied territory, there will probably be no MACR.

The Italian link doesn't provide any more data than what I have translated. Sarcasm accepted.

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hi guys

Spotted on a website: On returning from a night raid on Harwich (Essex) on 20/21 November 1940, a BR20 of the 13 Stormo was allegedly shot down by a night fighter at 0045 on the morning of 21st, and crashed into the North Sea with the loss of all the crew. Presumably the crew had advised control they were under attack before their demise. I have no record of a corresponding RAF night fighter claim. Could the night fighter have been German? However, a scan of my records fails to reveal such a claim, but of course once the error had been realised any such claim would have been disallowed. Can anyone throw any light on this?

Cheers
Brian

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

More for you to ponder. Any further details available?

3 March 43: DB-7B AL496 343BS USAAF shot down by friendly fire Chelveston (pilot Henry K. MacDonald).

9 March 43: P-47 41-6263 63FS/56FG unauthorised flight by member of ground crew - crashed - identity? fate?

9 June 43: B-17 42-29884 352BS/92BG shot down by friendly fire Alconbury (pilot Lopez J. Mantoux)

7 November 43: B-26 41-31951 454BS/323BG shot down by friendly fire near Earls Colne (pilot Joe J. Patton)

7 June 44: B-26B 42-96110 599BS/397BG shot down by friendly fire and crash-landed Rye (pilot Edward W. Kretschmer)

16 August 44: B-24H 41-28981 457BG shot down by friendly fire over North Sea (pilot Charles W. Grace)
B-24H 42-50580 788BS/467BG shot down by friendly fire over North Sea (pilot William V. DeWitte)

27 December 44: P-61A 42-5584 425NFS shot down by friendly fire nr Jarny, France (Carl H. Byars)

Over to you guys

Thanks

Brian

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Brian-
B17 # 42 - 29884 June 28 ,43 to Air Force Service Command
Re- gained July 8,43
Shot down Aug. 12,43 Pilot Hans Johnson 10 POW
Macr #374 92d BG

B - 24 # 128981 ditched North Sea March 4,45 Mid air collision
Pilot - Lt George Mills No MACR 467th BG

B - 24 # 42 - 50580 damaged Aug.16,44. Salvaged Sept. 21,44 467th BG
From: " Heavy Bombers of the Mighty 8th "
Cheers,
Mike

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hi Mike

That's strange! I extracted the details above from the ARMYAIRFORCES website, re Accidents Overseas section. Sommit bain't be right!

Brian

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hi Brian,

The site you cite above is listing all accidents and incidents, most of the AC were not destroyed but only damaged. Only when it is indicated that the crew bailed out or the aircraft was destroyed can you be sure it was a total loss, in most other cases the AC was repaired later.

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Thanks Laurent for the explanation. However, I would still appreciate any information re the incidents listed.

PS Have you received the book?

Cheers
Brian

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hi guys

To add to my earlier listing of apparent friendly fire incidents as noted on the 'ArmyAirforces' Accident Reports website:

23 Feb 1945: F-6 44-14602 lost to friendly fire (Donald G. Dowell); F-6 43-12409 lost to friendly fire (Wallace F. Mitchell baled out)

5 March 1945: B-24 42-100334 lost to friendly fire (pilot Ralph E. Reed) Clacton, Essex

15 March 1945: C-47A 42-92424 lost to friendly fire (pilot William F. Lange) Gravesend, Kent

17 March 1945: B-24 42-40163 lost to friendly fire (pilot Howard T. Worrall)

9 April 1945: B-17G 44-8798 ditched due to friendly fire (pilot Aliston Slade)

Again, any help will be much appreciated.

Cheers
Brian

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Here's another! I did enquire if anyone knew the identity of a US P-51 pilot shot down in error by a Free French Spitfire pilot on 7 October 1944, presumably over Southern France. It seems that the following P-51 units lost aircraft on this date: 332FG (two), 20FG (three), 55FG (one), 359FG (one), 361 FG (one), 479FG (one), Is anyone able to narrow down the possible candidate?

Also, I am trying to establish the UK bases (Kent/Sussex) occupied by the following US fighter squadrons in June/July 1944: 326FS/362FG; 381FS/363FG, 365FS/358FG, 22FS/36FG (an aircraft type), 412FS/373FG - I know that you know what I don't know! Thanks

Brian

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Brian -
B-17 # 48798 390th BG 569th Sq. CC - O
shot down , Friendly Fire , Ditched English Channel
Command Pilot - William Corcoran . Pilot - Alliston Slade
TG - Aurthur Trindle KIA , 8 RTD No MACR

B - 24 # 210034 93d BG 409th SQ. YM - O/K " Old Patches "
Shot down March 5, 45 NO MACR
Mike

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Having not looked throught every post on this thread I run the risk of duplication but I'll take my chances. Capt Jack Coonan 38th FS 55th FG shot down by his wingman Lt Amoss in Jan 45. There was a 78th FG P-47 shot down by error over England during a practive dogfight with the pilot killed. Lt Ernie Shipman of the 31st FG was shot down by a P-38J over Italy in 1944 and captured. Then there's the "Mad Gunner" who downed severed US aircraft before his shame led him to refuse to baleout when his B-17 was shot down.