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-   -   Crash place of Otto Kittel found (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=34771)

Nick Hector 19th November 2017 13:43
Re: Crash place of Otto Kittel found
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by knusel (Post 242977)
These links do not answer my question.

Was the Il-2 that was brought down on Kittel's last flight part of his official tally of 267 kills or is it a 268th claim that was not confirmed due to the demise of Kittel ?

Michael
Where does it say he got one on his last flight? Source please....

Nick Hector 19th November 2017 13:45
Re: Crash place of Otto Kittel found
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evgeny Velichko (Post 242981)
Nick:
-There is no evidence about Kittle's combats / claims on 14 february. Also, on 14 february 1945 weather was such bad that neither VVS nor Luftwaffe flew combat missions.

-On 16 february 45, Kittel fought against 502 ShAP and was killed. Il-2, that was shot down (by Renner's report), was only damaged, and with wounded gunner, could fly back to airfield and land.
Cheers Evgeny,

So I wonder why we have a notation for 14 February, of:
806 ShAP, 206 ShAD. Known to have made an emergency landing

Hope your birthday was a good one too by the way

Leo Etgen 19th November 2017 16:52
Crash place of Otto Kittel found
 
Hi guys

I think that the confusion arises over the fact that I have seen some statements that he was killed on 14 February 1945 when we now know that this happened on 16 February 1945. I believe that Die Ritterkreuzträger Der Luftwaffe 1939-1945 by Obermaier might be the source of this discrepancy. Apparently, Kittel attacked one of the Il-2 Sturmovik ground-attack aircraft during his last engagement and I believe this to be the last one credited to him (although now we know it was only damaged).

http://www.pilotenbunker.de/Jagdflie...ittel_flug.jpg

Any comments or corrections will be appreciated!

Horrido!

Leo

Nick Beale 19th November 2017 17:54
Re: Crash place of Otto Kittel found
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo Etgen (Post 242993)
Hi guys

I think that the confusion arises over the fact that I have seen some statements that he was killed on 14 February 1945 when we now know that this happened on 16 February 1945. I believe that Die Ritterkreuzträger Der Luftwaffe 1939-1945 by Obermaier might be the source of this discrepancy.

Leo
My copy (2nd revised edition) gives 16 February as the date of his death.

Nick Hector 19th November 2017 21:46
Re: Crash place of Otto Kittel found
 
Thanks Leo and "other Nick" the whole thing makes so much more sense now that the discrepancy is pointed out and it's good to see that it has been corrected

knusel 20th November 2017 15:29
Re: Crash place of Otto Kittel found
 
Good afternoon Gentlemen,

by courtesy of Matti Salonen I learned that indeed Kittel died on 16Feb.
The 14Feb must be a mistake unless he survived his crash for two days...

Now I want to compile a full list of his claims and wonder
if the Il-2 on his last flight was acknowledged as his kill #267
or if he has 265 confirmed claims with the last being claimed on 19No44 plus 2 unconfirmed on 30Jun41.

What do you think ?

Michael

Evgeny Velichko 20th November 2017 19:15
Re: Crash place of Otto Kittel found
 
Knusel: I have all of his 264 known victories.
I am not aware about any unconfirmed victories. Even if they are exist, they are still unconfirmed.

Last of Kittel's known victories is on 19.11.1944. After that, he went to recieve Schwerten and for a month furlough. It is believed he came back to front in late january or early february. I believe, due to general fuel shortage and extremly bad weather in Kurland in first half of february, he didnt flew much combat missions.
He was killed on 16 february, and last his 3 victories he might claim during his last two-three weeks in january-february 1945.

Evgeny Velichko 20th November 2017 19:17
Re: Crash place of Otto Kittel found
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo Etgen (Post 242993)
Hi guys
Apparently, Kittel attacked one of the Il-2 Sturmovik ground-attack aircraft during his last engagement and I believe this to be the last one credited to him (although now we know it was only damaged).

http://www.pilotenbunker.de/Jagdflie...ittel_flug.jpg

Any comments or corrections will be appreciated!
Leo, I suggest to read my article carefully, especially last part. His last combat mission is well covered in BOTH german and soviet reports and documents, and BOTH side documents fith each other almost 100%! Fight and crashplace, altitude, number of Fw190's, number of Il-2's e.t.c.

knusel 20th November 2017 19:46
Re: Crash place of Otto Kittel found
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evgeny Velichko (Post 243083)
Knusel: I have all of his 264 known victories.
I am not aware about any unconfirmed victories. Even if they are exist, they are still unconfirmed.

Last of Kittel's known victories is on 19.11.1944. After that, he went to recieve Schwerten and for a month furlough. It is believed he came back to front in late january or early february. I believe, due to general fuel shortage and extremly bad weather in Kurland in first half of february, he didnt flew much combat missions.
He was killed on 16 february, and last his 3 victories he might claim during his last two-three weeks in january-february 1945.
Good evening Evgeny,

I have gathered the following 265 confirmed claims:

# 1 24.06.1941 SB-2
# 2 24.06.1941 SB-2
# 3 06.07.1941 SB-2
# 4 18.08.1941 MiG-1
# 5 19.08.1941 DB-3
# 6 24.08.1941 DB-3
# 7 08.09.1941 R-5
# 8 08.09.1941 I-153
# 9 12.09.1941 I-153
# 10 21.09.1941 MiG-1
# 11 13.10.1941 MiG-1
# 12 13.12.1941 DB-3
# 13 27.02.1942 I-16
# 14 20.03.1942 P-40
# 15 20.03.1942 P-40
# 16 14.05.1942 SB-2
# 17 14.05.1942 SB-2
# 18 23.08.1942 Il-2
# 19 07.09.1942 Il-2
# 20 23.09.1942 I-16
# 21 22.10.1942 Il-2
# 22 12.01.1943 Yak-1
# 23 12.01.1943 Il-2
# 24 12.01.1943 U-2
# 25 12.01.1943 Il-2
# 26 12.01.1943 I-153
# 27 12.01.1943 Il-2
# 28 14.01.1943 La-5
# 29 16.01.1943 Il-2
# 30 24.01.1943 La-5
# 31 26.01.1943 Il-2
# 32 11.02.1943 Il-2
# 33 14.02.1943 Il-2
# 34 14.02.1943 Il-2
# 35 15.02.1943 Il-2
# 36 19.02.1943 LaGG-3
# 37 19.02.1943 La-5
# 38 19.02.1943 Yak-7
# 39 19.02.1943 Pe-2
# 40 21.02.1943 I-16
# 41 07.03.1943 LaGG-3
# 42 07.03.1943 LaGG-3
# 43 10.03.1943 LaGG-3
# 44 10.03.1943 MiG-3
# 45 14.03.1943 LaGG-3
# 46 14.03.1943 LaGG-3
# 47 15.03.1943 MiG-3
# 48 01.04.1943 Il-2
# 49 01.04.1943 Il-2
# 50 11.06.1943 La-5
# 51 18.06.1943 P-40
# 52 22.06.1943 Il-2
# 53 22.06.1943 LaGG-3
# 54 24.06.1943 P-40
# 55 24.06.1943 P-40
# 56 05.07.1943 La-5
# 57 05.07.1943 LaGG-3
# 58 05.07.1943 Il-2
# 59 05.07.1943 Il-2
# 60 07.07.1943 P-40
# 61 07.07.1943 P-39
# 62 07.07.1943 P-40
# 63 09.07.1943 Il-2
# 64 09.07.1943 Il-2
# 65 10.07.1943 LaGG-3
# 66 10.07.1943 LaGG-3
# 67 13.07.1943 Il-2
# 68 13.07.1943 Il-2
# 69 13.07.1943 Il-2
# 70 13.07.1943 Il-2
# 71 16.07.1943 La-5
# 72 16.07.1943 La-5
# 73 16.07.1943 La-5
# 74 17.07.1943 La-5
# 75 17.07.1943 Yak-9
# 76 20.07.1943 LaGG-3
# 77 20.07.1943 Yak-9
# 78 27.07.1943 Il-2
# 79 28.07.1943 Il-2
# 80 28.07.1943 Il-2
# 81 01.08.1943 Yak-9
# 82 02.08.1943 LaGG-3
# 83 02.08.1943 La-5
# 84 02.08.1943 LaGG-3
# 85 03.08.1943 P-39
# 86 03.08.1943 La-5
# 87 04.08.1943 LaGG-3
# 88 04.08.1943 Il-2
# 89 04.08.1943 Il-2
# 90 04.08.1943 Il-2
# 91 04.08.1943 LaGG-3
# 92 04.08.1943 LaGG-3
# 93 04.08.1943 La-5
# 94 05.08.1943 LaGG-3
# 95 07.09.1943 LaGG-3
# 96 07.09.1943 Yak-9
# 97 10.09.1943 P-40
# 98 11.09.1943 LaGG-3
# 99 12.09.1943 LaGG-3
# 100 14.09.1943 Yak-9
# 101 14.09.1943 La-5
# 102 14.09.1943 LaGG-3
# 103 15.09.1943 Il-2
# 104 15.09.1943 Il-2
# 105 30.09.1943 Il-2
# 106 05.10.1943 Yak-9
# 107 05.10.1943 LaGG-3
# 108 11.10.1943 LaGG-3
# 109 12.10.1943 LaGG-3
# 110 12.10.1943 LaGG-3
# 111 12.10.1943 LaGG-3
# 112 13.10.1943 R-5
# 113 14.10.1943 LaGG-3
# 114 14.10.1943 LaGG-3
# 115 15.10.1943 LaGG-3
# 116 15.10.1943 LaGG-3
# 117 15.10.1943 Il-2
# 118 15.10.1943 LaGG-3
# 119 17.10.1943 LaGG-3
# 120 19.10.1943 LaGG-3
# 121 22.10.1943 La-5
# 122 23.10.1943 La-5
# 123 28.10.1943 LaGG-3
# 124 05.11.1943 Il-2
# 125 05.11.1943 Il-2
# 126 05.11.1943 LaGG-3
# 127 06.11.1943 Il-2
# 128 05.03.1944 La-5
# 129 06.03.1944 La-5
# 130 07.03.1944 Il-2
# 131 07.03.1944 Yak-1
# 132 08.03.1944 La-5
# 133 08.03.1944 La-5
# 134 19.03.1944 Yak-1
# 135 19.03.1944 Yak-9
# 136 26.03.1944 R-5
# 137 26.03.1944 R-5
# 138 26.03.1944 Yak-9
# 139 28.03.1944 Yak-9
# 140 30.03.1944 Pe-2
# 141 30.03.1944 La-5
# 142 30.03.1944 La-5
# 143 01.04.1944 Yak-9
# 144 02.04.1944 La-5
# 145 02.04.1944 La-5
# 146 02.04.1944 Pe-2
# 147 02.04.1944 Pe-2
# 148 04.04.1944 Il-2
# 149 04.04.1944 Il-2
# 150 04.04.1944 LaGG-3
# 151 04.04.1944 LaGG-3
# 152 04.04.1944 La-5
# 153 24.04.1944 Yak-9
# 154 24.04.1944 La-5
# 155 26.05.1944 La-5
# 156 30.05.1944 Pe-2
# 157 30.05.1944 La-5
# 158 02.06.1944 LaGG-3
# 159 05.06.1944 Yak-9
# 160 28.06.1944 Il-2
# 161 28.06.1944 P-39
# 162 28.06.1944 Il-2
# 163 28.06.1944 P-39
# 164 28.06.1944 Il-2
# 165 29.06.1944 P-39
# 166 30.06.1944 P-39
# 167 30.06.1944 Yak-9
# 168 30.06.1944 Il-2
# 169 30.06.1944 Il-2
# 170 01.07.1944 P-39
# 171 02.07.1944 P-39
# 172 03.07.1944 P-39
# 173 03.07.1944 Il-2
# 174 04.07.1944 Il-2
# 175 04.07.1944 P-39
# 176 10.07.1944 P-39
# 177 16.07.1944 P-39
# 178 16.07.1944 Il-2
# 179 18.07.1944 Yak-9
# 180 18.07.1944 Yak-9
# 181 21.07.1944 Il-2
# 182 21.07.1944 Yak-9
# 183 21.07.1944 Yak-9
# 184 22.07.1944 Il-2
# 185 22.07.1944 Il-2
# 186 22.07.1944 Il-2
# 187 24.07.1944 Pe-2
# 188 24.07.1944 Pe-2
# 189 29.07.1944 Il-2
# 190 29.07.1944 Il-2
# 191 01.08.1944 Yak-9
# 192 01.08.1944 Yak-9
# 193 01.08.1944 Yak-9
# 194 07.08.1944 Yak-9
# 195 15.08.1944 Yak-9
# 196 15.08.1944 Yak-9
# 197 15.08.1944 Il-2
# 198 17.08.1944 Pe-2
# 199 25.08.1944 P-39
# 200 26.08.1944 Yak-9
# 201 26.08.1944 La-5
# 202 27.08.1944 Il-2
# 203 28.08.1944 Yak-9
# 204 28.08.1944 Yak-9
# 205 28.08.1944 Yak-9
# 206 31.08.1944 Il-2
# 207 31.08.1944 Il-2
# 208 31.08.1944 Il-2
# 209 14.09.1944 Yak-9
# 210 14.09.1944 Yak-9
# 211 14.09.1944 Il-2
# 212 14.09.1944 Il-2
# 213 14.09.1944 Il-2
# 214 14.09.1944 Yak-9
# 215 15.09.1944 Il-2
# 216 15.09.1944 Il-2
# 217 16.09.1944 Il-2
# 218 17.09.1944 Pe-2
# 219 17.09.1944 P-39
# 220 17.09.1944 Pe-2
# 221 20.09.1944 Yak-9
# 222 20.09.1944 Yak-9
# 223 22.09.1944 La-5
# 224 28.09.1944 Pe-2
# 225 28.09.1944 Pe-2
# 226 28.09.1944 Pe-2
# 227 28.09.1944 Yak-9
# 228 30.09.1944 Yak-9
# 229 30.09.1944 Il-2
# 230 30.09.1944 Il-2
# 231 07.10.1944 Yak-9
# 232 09.10.1944 Il-2
# 233 09.10.1944 Il-2
# 234 09.10.1944 Il-2
# 235 09.10.1944 Il-2
# 236 09.10.1944 Il-2
# 237 10.10.1944 La-5
# 238 10.10.1944 Il-2
# 239 10.10.1944 Il-2
# 240 14.10.1944 La-5
# 241 16.10.1944 La-5
# 242 16.10.1944 Il-2
# 243 16.10.1944 Il-2
# 244 16.10.1944 Il-2
# 245 17.10.1944 La-5
# 246 18.10.1944 Il-2
# 247 18.10.1944 Il-2
# 248 22.10.1944 Yak-3
# 249 27.10.1944 Yak-9
# 250 27.10.1944 Yak-9
# 251 27.10.1944 Il-2
# 252 27.10.1944 Pe-2
# 253 27.10.1944 Pe-2
# 254 27.10.1944 Il-2
# 255 27.10.1944 Il-2
# 256 29.10.1944 Il-2
# 257 29.10.1944 Il-2
# 258 29.10.1944 Il-2
# 259 29.10.1944 Il-2
# 260 29.10.1944 Il-2
# 261 29.10.1944 Il-2
# 262 30.10.1944 Il-2
# 263 30.10.1944 Il-2
# 264 30.10.1944 Il-2
# 265 19.11.1944 La-5


plus 2 unconfirmed Il2's on 30.06.1941 and the Il-2 on 16.02.1945.
The former plus his 265 confirmed might add up to his widespread total of 267 while the latter wasn't counted to his total, was it ?
We need some bulletin from the Schwerter award that reveals if his total was 267 after 19Nov and before his last flight.

Have a nice evening,

Michael


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