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-   -   Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation? (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=52803)

Franek Grabowski 26th December 2018 16:10

Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
Hi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johannes (Post 262713)
Your bogus stories item is actually most interesting, I am sure that some pilots made up such stories, but many others had things made up about them, and probably never ever knew about it in their lifetime.

I have been in touch with a son of a Soviet pilot downed in Murmansk area by a well known JG 5 pilot. There was a marked discrepancy between the accounts of both, and the Soviet pilot was the only loss, despite numbers claimed by the German pilot. This was based on post-war accounts.

Quote:

Actually I had heard good things about III./JG54, if true this might explain the very obvious decline in the Lang gang's claiming. Hopefully a Russian loss expert can cross-examine my thoughts here.
If it has not been done already, no doubt it will. The problem is that the Lw research is poor, and in fact nobody ever attempted to recreate a sort of RAF Form 541 for any German unit. It would help immenselly to understand the situation.

Quote:

As for Bader, fact he came up alone behind a whole staffel of Bf109's, didn't want to attack so dove away, another Spitfire came up behing the same staffel and saw one dive away, which he nailed...…..it being Bader, Bader never fired a shot, claimed he shot down two Bf109's and collided with another, Bader's victor was them himself shot down, whilst a prisoner and talking to Bader he realised his mistake and apoligised to Bader, yer Bader still maintained he was rammed by a Bf109, I believe he also avoided paying tax on his autobiography because he was a National hero...…...you need gal.
As far as the book explains it, Bader misjudged his approach, so following his attack he had to dive down to avoid collision. He certainly has not written his autobiography, as it was Paul Brickhill who was the author. There was some quarrel about share in royalties, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alfred.MONZAT (Post 262715)
I have not read this book but... three friendly fire ? In the same combat ?

Yes, Bader, and two aircraft of No 452 Sqn downed by the 452 Sqn airmen, who clashed with themselves. Several, but cannot say how many exactly, RAF losses do not match German claims, including Galland.

Leo Etgen 26th December 2018 16:40

Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
Hello Nick

Many thanks for posting your Eder claims list! I noticed that there is a victory included on 24 July 1941 for a Pe-2 but this does not appear on the list that I have for him which is taken from Die Jagdfliegerverbände der Deutschen Luftwaffe 1934 bis 1945 by Prien. Also, it now appears that he did not claim the P-38 generally attributed to him on 6 October 1944 but rather this was claimed on 18 November 1944 against a P-38 of the 154th Weather Reconnaissance Squadron, USAAF. I hope that you find this useful.

Horrido!

Leo

Alfred.MONZAT 26th December 2018 17:35

Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski (Post 262728)
Yes, Bader, and two aircraft of No 452 Sqn downed by the 452 Sqn airmen, who clashed with themselves. Several, but cannot say how many exactly, RAF losses do not match German claims, including Galland.

Are you sure ? Bader was supposedly shot down by Casson of 616 Squadron.

Finucane & co shot down 2 of their own squadron among their 5 victories and their victims were labelled as "shot down by Bf 109s" ? I wonder what specific source(s) the author used to get to this conclusion.

Crazy how efficient they were against their own compared against the ennemy. Well back to the subject, claims and losses that don't match, that's not uncommon but I can hardly believe this kind of friendly fire was common.

Franek Grabowski 26th December 2018 20:55

Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alfred.MONZAT (Post 262733)
Are you sure ? Bader was supposedly shot down by Casson of 616 Squadron.

Yes.

Quote:

Finucane & co shot down 2 of their own squadron among their 5 victories and their victims were labelled as "shot down by Bf 109s" ? I wonder what specific source(s) the author used to get to this conclusion.
Yes. Comparison of combat reports and other narratives, as well as comparison with German claims and losses. Prety convincing.

Quote:

Crazy how efficient they were against their own compared against the ennemy. Well back to the subject, claims and losses that don't match, that's not uncommon but I can hardly believe this kind of friendly fire was common.
This is one of the reasons of my doubts concerning GQ6 loss lists. Depending on what one means by common, I have found several such incidents, and one may wonder how many are not identifiable. My wild guess is about 20% to friendly fire.

Johannes 27th December 2018 11:04

Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
Hi Guys

Couldn't remember Bader's victor, but the name Cason I believe is correct, I tend to remember numbers better and thirteen kills for Cason.
The name Finuacane also sounds familiar, if I am remembering correctly he was know as "The Irish ace", and was as bad at over-claiming as Badar.

A pilot of JG5(can't recall name) once stated that JG5 thought it had been abandoned to the North, got second hand aircraft, and over-claimed as a matter of routine just to spite, I think this wound not include I./JG5 and I bet not all pilots over-claimed.


Actually there should be no reason why a Gruppe and especially a staffel should claim so much more than another in the same place and time, lets call then super-staffels, but they exist 9./JG52, 6./JG5 and 5./JG54 to name a few.


Anyway back to Eder, guess we can't take Hermann Buchner's word for his honesty, but his claims don't seem to be too bad...…..do they?


Kind Regards


Johannes

Nick Hector 27th December 2018 11:21

Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Johannes (Post 262765)
Hi Guys

Couldn't remember Bader's victor, but the name Cason I believe is correct, I tend to remember numbers better and thirteen kills for Cason.
The name Finuacane also sounds familiar, if I am remembering correctly he was know as "The Irish ace", and was as bad at over-claiming as Badar.

A pilot of JG5(can't recall name) once stated that JG5 thought it had been abandoned to the North, got second hand aircraft, and over-claimed as a matter of routine just to spite, I think this wound not include I./JG5 and I bet not all pilots over-claimed.


Actually there should be no reason why a Gruppe and especially a staffel should claim so much more than another in the same place and time, lets call then super-staffels, but they exist 9./JG52, 6./JG5 and 5./JG54 to name a few.


Anyway back to Eder, guess we can't take Hermann Buchner's word for his honesty, but his claims don't seem to be too bad...…..do they?


Kind Regards


Johannes

I am inclined to think he was quite good. It's up to you what you personally make of my claims to losses comparison, but I have definitely seen worse than Eder

Nick Hector 27th December 2018 11:36

Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo Etgen (Post 262730)
Hello Nick

Many thanks for posting your Eder claims list! I noticed that there is a victory included on 24 July 1941 for a Pe-2 but this does not appear on the list that I have for him which is taken from Die Jagdfliegerverbände der Deutschen Luftwaffe 1934 bis 1945 by Prien. Also, it now appears that he did not claim the P-38 generally attributed to him on 6 October 1944 but rather this was claimed on 18 November 1944 against a P-38 of the 154th Weather Reconnaissance Squadron, USAAF. I hope that you find this useful.

Horrido!

Leo


Thankyou, Leo. I always welcome corrections and additions. There have been many conflicting sources on the subject of Eder and it's very helpful to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff

Franek Grabowski 28th December 2018 15:12

Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
Hi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johannes (Post 262765)
Couldn't remember Bader's victor, but the name Cason I believe is correct, I tend to remember numbers better and thirteen kills for Cason.
The name Finuacane also sounds familiar, if I am remembering correctly he was know as "The Irish ace", and was as bad at over-claiming as Badar.

Buck Casson, already mentioned in the thread.
Paddy Finucane was indeed Irish, and a leading RAF ace of 1941-42 period. I have seen a comment by an airman, that it was claimed he filed bogus claims, but I am very cautious with such statements. Our knowledge on German acitivities in the period is limited to say the least, and we cannot say for sure if enemies of Bader or Finucane escaped unscathed, damaged or were shot down. I recall a case of another rather well known pilot, who claimed to force watery land a German flying boat and then to destroy it on the water - this is not reflected on the German loss lists.

Quote:

A pilot of JG5(can't recall name) once stated that JG5 thought it had been abandoned to the North, got second hand aircraft, and over-claimed as a matter of routine just to spite, I think this wound not include I./JG5 and I bet not all pilots over-claimed.
The pilot in question IIRC claimed he was in a combat with several aircraft, but actually there was only a single aircraft on landing pattern I think. This is not exactly on overclaim, when in the heat of the combat pilot makes inaccurate assessment of the enemy's damage.

Quote:

Actually there should be no reason why a Gruppe and especially a staffel should claim so much more than another in the same place and time, lets call then super-staffels, but they exist 9./JG52, 6./JG5 and 5./JG54 to name a few.
Actually, there could be a reason, but it may not transpire from sheer numbers. It is a matter of opportunity, experience of pilots and leadership. Look for example at the Polish No 302 and No 303 Sqns during the BoB. The former spend the time in the north of England and far and away from combat, the latter was in the heat of the battle. Their scores were markedly different. Also No 315 Sqn, under the leadership of S/L Horbaczewski took the lead in the PAF, as noted by pilots, die to his keenness and will for combat. This phenomena is visible between the Polish Squadrons in various periods.
On the other hand I have seen comments that certain pilots may have been favoured for various reasons and send to intercept the enemy in the first place. Obviously this reflected on their score.
So, it is entirely possible that some units fared much better, but it would require a much more in depth research in particular units, and it would be a hectic job now.

Best regards

Franek

focusfocus 28th December 2018 21:46

Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
Hello Nick

Some additions about Eder's "abschusse" from my research

30/12/42
his victim:42-2975(423°Sqd,306°BG) crashed "Port-Louis/Riantec" Quadrat 14 West 48--
Shared (1/6) with Mayer,Knappe,Schnell,Bruno Eder (same family?),Ebert....all these claims in the same Quadrat 14 West 48--

Other two losses crashed in the Quadrat 14 West 59--
42-5078(306°Sqd,305°BG) crashed "Pointe de Tremazan" Landunweg over the sea
41-24449(401°Sqd,91°BG) crashed off Portsall
these two claims by May,Tartsch,Godt,Schmidt:all their claims in the Quadrat 14 West 59--

13/02/43:09.57h
his victim:BS 247(340°Sqd Free French),OR the other (serial unknown) of 340°Sqd damaged and crashed in England,OR BR 142 (64°Sqd) crashed over the sea off Boulogne during Circus 262.

the Spit of 610°Sqd(EN 896) shot down after 12.00h with 3 Spit of 485°Sqd during Rodeo 168
Claims by Becker,WF.Galland,Naumann,Hoppe

28/02/43
I did not find a claim by Eder this day and no losse of 453°Sqd

08/03/43
No Spit of 313°Sqd:this shot down around 15.00h off Plouha/Plouezec in Bretagne Quadra 14 West N/39--
Claims by Buteweg 14 West N/3917

the victim of Eder is in Normandie ("Le Petit-Quevilly"):340°Sqd Free French
BS 312 Sgt/Chef Paul Hubidos
Shared (1/2) with Glunz (JG26)

28/03/43
42-29537(91°BG) shared (1/2) with Bolz

29/05/43
Impossible,shot down E. of Clayes (10 km of Rennes):Quadrat 14 West/29--

The claim of Eder is in the Quadrat 15 West /3075 (over the sea)

26/06/43
Possible,but also possible EN 128 316°Sqd crashed "Le Havre"
The two (316°Sqd and 118°Sqd) claimed by Eder and Karch

17/08/44
Claims "fanciful,ridiculous":two spit who crashed on three Sherman! and destroyed them!
I will develop more tad.

Best Regards Michel

Leo Etgen 29th December 2018 17:00

Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
Hi Michel

Many thanks for your comments regarding the claims and possible victims of Eder. I noticed that Tony Wood in his claims lists has both Bolz and Eder claiming B-17 four-engined bombers on 28 March 1943 whereas Jochen Prien in Die Jagdfliegerverbände der Deutschen Luftwaffe 1934 bis 1945 lists Bolz with a Spitfire and Eder with a B-17 on 28 March 1943. I hope this helps.

Horrido!

Leo


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