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Johannes 19th December 2018 11:39

Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
1 Attachment(s)
Hi Guys

Another strange caser for us to investigate. Georg-Peter Eder has been widely credited with at least twelve Jet kills, jet evidence is completely lacking, and lacking where there should be some.
Ekdo.262 became Kom.Now, which became Jg7, the mikrofilms cover the period 5th August 1944 until 3rd December 1944, yet absolutely no Eder claims are amongst them, yet we are informed that he was injured out of the war on 22nd January 1945...…..giving a period of fifty day to make his twelve claims!
Firstly was Eder truly actually injured out on 22nd January 1945....One for Matti here>
Secondly personally I believe he was a honest claimer, but that's my feeling, can that be proved. Attached is his abschusselist with witnesses, these vary, and sometimes two per kill, also very accurate crash-sites as these come from his abscussemeldung themselves. What goes against this is his association with JG2, though as we have seen before JG2 pilots were not all making false claims.

So in short, was he wounded out on 22nd January 1945, was he honest. If he was dis-honest in his claiming(think of Walther Dahl) then perhaps the twelve jet kills come from himself, and then I guess we can disregard the figure.

Kind Regards

JohannesAttachment 17494

Nick Hector 19th December 2018 13:04

Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
I've said it before, I'll say it again.

Dahl is not as "dishonest" as you make him out to be. Sure, you have provided evidence that his final claims are likely fictional, but there are instances where his claims DO stand up:

Walther Dahl

22.6.41/0430
"I-18"
W of Lemberg @ 1500m
23 or 28 IAP. Details pending

8.8.41/1330
DB-3
E of Majewo
11 DBAP? They suffered at least 5 losses, crews of Ml.Lt. A I Pykhtin, Serzhant A Evdokimov, Ml.Lt. P T Krashenninikov, Ml.Lt. Nikolay Ilyich Alimbarashvili and Serzhant N I Mineev all failed to return. Another possibility is 8 DBAP, crew of Lt. Ivan Yakovlevich Korovin which was definitely lost to fighters

24.8.41/0855
"I-180"
S of Zaporozhe
162 IAP? They lost Ml.Lt. Andrey Panteleevich Tsaplagin KIA this date

14.9.41/0605
I-153 "Tchaika"
Jelesawetowka/Mironovka area
44 IAD Staff. This was probably claimed against Leytenant Grigoriy Kotscha. Overclaiming, as he managed to escape (also appears to have been claimed by Gollob)

19.9.41/1357
SB-3
Kotschubjewka
Possibly 316 ORAP. Crew of Ml.Lt. Yaroslav Leonidovich Bratolyubov

Unconfirmed
2.4.42/1530
Hurricane ("Spitfire")
Malta
BV174 of 229 sqn. P/O Andrews returned to base with damage

26.8.42/0830
Yak-7B
NW of Stalingrad @ 800m
(Wilcke and Wessling claimed as well)
Were these claimed against 900 IAP? They lost Lt. Viktor Alekseyevich Saburov KIA

7.9.42/1536
La-5
SW of Achtuba (PQ 49283) @ 2500m
3 GIAP or 27 IAP, 287 IAD, 8 VA. Definitely 3 La-5s lost this date

19.9.42/1144
Yak
1km SE of Kotluban @ 500m
8 VA (1 Yak-7B lost) or 16 VA (6 Yak-1s and 1 Yak-7B lost) or 102 IAD/PVO. 16 VA losses include Pavel Nikolaevich Bulaev of 520 IAP KIA and Ivan Yakovlevich Buldygin of 581 IAP

24.9.42/1103 and 1109
2 x Yak-1s
Stalingrad – Dubovka
8 VA (no known losses) or 16 VA (8 Yak-1s lost) or 102 IAD/PVO. 16 VA's losses include Mikhail Stepanovich Bubnov of 43 IAP, Serzhant Peter Korneevich Sednev of 520 IAP and Ilya Mikhaylovich Yuzhakov (AE CO) of 812 IAP. All KIA

27.9.42/1603
Stalingrad @ 4500m
8 VA (1 IL-2 lost this date) or 16 VA (no known losses this date). 8 VA's loss was 944 ShAP, Serzhant Pavel Vasilyevich Sytov
(Wilcke also claimed, so one must be an overclaim)

14.10.42/0707 and 0715
2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks
20-25km NW of Stalingrad
Likely 245 ShAP. Losses include Evgeny Filippovich Baranov POW (liberated in January 1943). 954 ShAP lost Kapitan Arkady Ivanovich Buzev (AE CO) KIA
There were about 5 claims in total

17.10.42/0915
Yak-1
50km NE of Stalingrad @ 2000m
512 IAP. Starshiy Leytenant Ignatiy Biryukov

25.10.42/1039 and 1421
2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks
Krasnoarmejsk – Stalingrad
686, 807 and 945 ShAP, 206 ShAD? (definitely in action this day). Losses include MSgt Sudarkin of 945 ShAP, forcelanded 5km S of Prishchevka (already damaged by Flak, finished off by a Bf109). 944 ShAP lost St. Serzhant Nikolay Sergeevich Smirnov KIA

26.10.42/1402, 1407, 1408 and 1412
4 x IL-2 Sturmoviks
Stalingrad – Beketovka
Day's IL-2 losses include 206 ShAD's Sgt. Malyshev KIA over Sarpinskiy Island. 686 ShAP, 807 ShAP, 811 ShAP and 945 ShAP all in action this date. 505 ShAP lost Serzhant Alexei Nikolaevich Sipigin KIA this date 807 ShAP lost Pavel Dmitrievich Shurigin in an alleged taran this date

27.10.42/1000
Yak-1
12km E of Krasnaja Sloboda
Day's losses in the Stalingrad sector include 11 IAP's Vitaliy Vasilievich Serkov KIA. Same unit lost Serzhant Vasily Ivanovich Titov on IL-2 escort mission and definitely to fighters was Nikolay Aleksandrovich Shershilov baled out failed to return

30.11.42/0810 and 0812
2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks
Pitomnik – Kotluban
622 ShAP, 214 ShAD, 8 VA definitely in action over Pitomnik in the morning losing 6 planes and 5 crews including Kapitan Dobrokhotov and Serzhant Pyatiletov. 5 more were seriously damaged

15.4.43/1629 and 1630
2 x LaGG-3s
Kuban bridgehead
At least 9 LaGG-3s lost this day. 4 from 267 IAP, 2 from 979 IAP, 2 from 926 IAP and 1 from 269 IAP more specific info is impossible due to large number of claims/losses

29.1.44/1107
B-17 Flying Fortress
Mannheim-Bastogne
Definitely lost to fighters around this time was 42-31486 of 612th BS, 401st BG. 2/Lt. John Tannahill Jr and 7 others KIA, remaining 2 crewmen both POW

24.2.44/1312
2 x B-17 Flying Fortress HSS
One of these was very likely B-17G-25-BO Flying Fortress 42-31666 "Poncho Thalken" of 96th BS, 2nd BG (damaged by fighter, ditched in the sea)

24.2.44/1320
P-38G-5-LO Lightning
30km SE of Steyr @ 5000m
Likely 42-12815 of 95th FS, 82nd FG. George Milton Gearhard baled out near Windischgarten after combat with fighter identified as Fw190

24.4.44/1330
B-17F-115-BO Flying Fortress
Augsburg area @ 6500m
Most likely one of several claims for 42-30730/WW- of 369th BS, 306th BG. 2/Lt. David B Ramsey and crew all POW

24.4.44/1345
P-51B-5-NA Mustang
near Muenchen @ 6500m
This one likely one of several claims for 43-7103/OS-O of 357th FS, 355th FG. 2/Lt. Howard K Hillman KIA

15.8.44/1145
B-17 Flying Fortress
Daun-Kyllberg area (PQ PO to QO) @ 6500m
First one to be attacked was 42-31183/VK-Y "Bad Penny" of 358th BS, 303rd BG. 2/Lt. Arthur L Goss and one other KIA, remaining 7 crewmen all POW
(this appears to be one of at least 6 claims for her)

15.8.44/1146
B-17G-5-BO Flying Fortress
Koblenz area (PQ PP-PO-QO) @ 6500m
Definitely down at 1146 was 42-31224/VK-F "Helen Heaven" 2/Lt. Samuel C Smithy and 4 others POW, remaining 4 crewmen all KIA

13.9.44
B-17 Flying Fortress (rammed)
Believed to be overclaiming, possibly fiction. No known loss by ramming

6.10.44/1205
B-17G-40-VE Flying Fortress
Naunen-Brandenburg (PQ FF-FG-GF) @ 8000m
551st BS, 385th BG. Was this 42-98010/Q of2/Lt. Deloy Taylor and crew all KIA except one man POW. Or possibly 43-38217/P of 2/Lt. Raymond W Tuley and 5 others KIA, 3 POW or 43-38430/N of 1/Lt. Donald J Andreas and 3 others KIA, 5 POW

26.4.45
P-51D Mustang
Near Dilligen
Was this 44-72967 of 354th FG? - Appears to be last Mustang lost in ETO, apparently attributed to Flak

Alfred.MONZAT 19th December 2018 15:40

Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
Great to see you at work Johannes on this. I always felt Eder had one of the most suspicious tally (past August 1944).

Johannes 19th December 2018 16:22

Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
Hi Nick

Thing is that unless the whole staffel is dis-honest then honest or not your probably not get away with anything dodgy, however if your with the Stab of a unit your probably only flying as a Rotte, and your likely to be high ranking......then the opportunity arises!

Therefore Dahl is unlikely to have been able to be dis-honest even if it was within him to be so while a lower rank.

The fictional Abschusseliste could have been made-up by himself or somebody else, however in his 1961 publication he states 133 victories, which would have made him top claimer during 1945......what are the chances of that?

Most of those we have proven to be dodgy are top scoring, and usually high ranking pilots, but the system does not allow them to do this alone, therefore they must bribe their witness with something, promotion, a claim of their own, booze, money, decorations(shared overclaiming would lead to this).

With Eder he earlier flew with JG51 which was generally more honest than JG2, and his rank lower, actually it seems that the Geschwader itself was influenced by whoever was Kommodore at the time when it comes to honesty i.e Wick JG2, Molders JG53/JG51 and Galland JG26. I have never really taken to Galland, yet guess I have got to respect his honesty really! So with Eder I have yet to be convinced of his dis-honesty.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Chris Goss 19th December 2018 19:15

Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
I have always tried to avoid such honest/dishonest arguments but with JG 2, for the BofB, Wick plus I Gruppe claimed 207, II Gruppe 61, III Gruppe 17......Common denominator?

Johannes 20th December 2018 14:33

Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
Hi Chris

John Foreman has always thought that JG2 got away with so much as it was the "Richthofen" Geschwader i.e using it's name. More likely is that because of it's location many of it's claims were alleged over water, but your analysis would suggest that if all Gruppen were at full strength then III Gruppe was honest and I Gruppe dis-honest, of course each pilot is different. It's the same with many Geschwader I./JG 54, 7th and 9th Staffel(especially the 9th) JG 52, II./JG 5(especially 6th Staffel.

If under the same circumstances of combat, why should one Geschwader out perform the others by so much. I have always thought that Meimberg and Seeger seemed honest, though both flew with 3./JG 2 at some point, whereas I always thought that Johann Schmid a bit dodgy, but did he continue within JG26?

Kind Regards

Johannes

Karl 20th December 2018 17:33

Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
Hello,

relating to Georg-Peter Eder´s "jet evidence":
Eder joined Kommando Nowotny in October 1944, made his very first Me262-flight with this unit and for example witnessed the deadly crash of Olt Paul Bley with a Me262 shortly after taking off from Achmer on 28.10.44.

After disbandment of the Kommando (due to the dead of Major Nowotny on 8. November 1944) and establishment of JG7, Eder became Staffelkapitän of 9./JG7 until 22.February (not January) 1945. On this day during an attack on a bomber formation, the left Jumo004 engine was hit by counter-fire and he had to bail out from his burning Me262 (WNr. 110 778). Due to contact with his plane´s fuselage or tail he suffered injuries to his head and left leg, which were severe enough that he was hospitalized until the end of war.

According to the Manfred Boehme´s book "Jagdgeschwader 7, die Chronik eines Me 262 Geschwaders 1944/45" there is a RLM document confirming that Eder achieved 11 victories between 01.10.1944 and 01.01.1945 with a total of then 64 victories (see page 84 in the book).

All of Eder´s personal photos and late war notes were "liberated" by his interrogator after war.

Regards, Karl

Nick Beale 20th December 2018 18:08

Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
1 Attachment(s)
The attached ULTRA suggests that Eder was detached from his unit at the end of November.

Franek Grabowski 20th December 2018 18:38

Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Johannes (Post 262443)
Hi Chris

John Foreman has always thought that JG2 got away with so much as it was the "Richthofen" Geschwader i.e using it's name. More likely is that because of it's location many of it's claims were alleged over water, but your analysis would suggest that if all Gruppen were at full strength then III Gruppe was honest and I Gruppe dis-honest, of course each pilot is different. It's the same with many Geschwader I./JG 54, 7th and 9th Staffel(especially the 9th) JG 52, II./JG 5(especially 6th Staffel.

If under the same circumstances of combat, why should one Geschwader out perform the others by so much. I have always thought that Meimberg and Seeger seemed honest, though both flew with 3./JG 2 at some point, whereas I always thought that Johann Schmid a bit dodgy, but did he continue within JG26?

Kind Regards

Johannes

Johannes
Do you have combat reports allowing to recreate events leading to particular vicotries? I am afraid not. Therefore having only partial evidence I find your comments about honesty or dishonesty a bit abusive. I find a number of eg. JG 26 confirmed victories being not supported by Allied data because the Allied aircraft were lost to another reason. An in depth research would require a detailed analysis of all combats, claims and losses, and this is virtually impossible. We also do not know, how many claims of eg. JG 26 were rejected on the initial stage, and only that would give us a fair comparison.
On the other hand it looks JG 2 fared much better in Normandy rather than JG 26.

Johannes 21st December 2018 09:24

Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
Hi Franek

I am not trying to discredit the Luftwaffe, they were far more accurate in their claims than most other airforces. What I have are evidence of 66650 confirmed claims, sometimes this evidence is the abschussemeldung which give about as much evidence as there is about an individual claim. Matching Allied loses to Luftwaffe claims shows there was overclaiming, usually the same individuals time and again. "Viermot" claims are to be treated differently, you didn't need to actually shoot the bomber down to make a claim, this would be a quirk of the points system.

My objective for asking about Eder is to establish the possibility about the "Twelve" jet claims always associated with him. It has been pointed out that the fifty days to acquire his jet kills has been with Karl's help(many thanks for that) been extended to eighty days.....a far more realistic time allowance. I asked about his honesty because I am no expert on that, but after the Walther Dahl saga I am a bit realistic to the possibility that what has been "fact" for seventy years might not actually be so. Fact is there is no flugbucher/abschussemeldung or abschusselist that shows evidence of Eder's claims, but that doesn't mean he didn't make them. With Erich Rudorffer we have the same twelve total of jet claims, only two were generally written about, yet after viewing his flugbuch (one of these wasn't correct) twelve proved to be the correct number, though they were later than expected.

My co-author John Foreman always said that if JG26 claimed they would match Allied loses very well, if JG 2 claimed not very well, if both claimed again not very well, but he would accept that it was JG2 not JG26 overclaiming.

Regarding been lost in another way, actually I am in agreement, in films made during the war British bombers were always reported as lost to flak, whereas the vast majority fell to fighters. Even a pilot being shot down may have been surprised and thought flak, yet could have been caught by a fighter.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Nick Hector 21st December 2018 10:58

Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
Hi Johannes,

Your words:
The Luftwaffe, were far more accurate in their claims than most other airforces.

There are plenty of instances of the Luftwaffe overclaiming as bad as any other airforce, and plenty of instances of other airforces claiming just as accurately as the Luftwaffe. Many publications from recent times deal with both sides of some of the various aerial campaigns the Luftwaffe was involved in. Suffice it to say, can we really continue to hold to the contention that the German "system" was ever so accurate?

On 15th February 1943 II./JG 2 encountered the US 1st and 82nd FGs and claimed an entire TEN victories over P-38 Lightnings. Of that ten victories EIGHT were confirmed by this "ever-so-fantastic" German confirmation system. NOT ONE SINGLE P-38 WENT DOWN IN THE ENGAGEMENT.
SOURCE: Focke Wulf 190 in North Africa by Andrew Arthy and Morten Jessen. pp. 108, 160-161

On 9th July 1944 II./JG 26 encountered 453 sqn RAAF over Normandy and Emil "Bully" Lang claimed 3 Spitfires shot down. All of them were confirmed by the "ever-so-rigid" German confirmation system but again, bugger-all were actually shot down.
SOURCES: JG 26 War Diary Part 2 by Donald Caldwell pp. 299-300
2nd Tactical Air Force Volume 2 pp. 212-213 by Christopher Shores and Chris Thomas.


Your words again:

What I have are evidence of 66650 confirmed claims.

In the light of the above, the concept of "confirmed claims" is well and truly an utterly useless construct by now...

Franek Grabowski 21st December 2018 15:28

Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
Johannes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johannes (Post 262482)
I am not trying to discredit the Luftwaffe, they were far more accurate in their claims than most other airforces. What I have are evidence of 66650 confirmed claims, sometimes this evidence is the abschussemeldung which give about as much evidence as there is about an individual claim. Matching Allied loses to Luftwaffe claims shows there was overclaiming, usually the same individuals time and again. "Viermot" claims are to be treated differently, you didn't need to actually shoot the bomber down to make a claim, this would be a quirk of the points system.

I really do not care about reputation of Luftwaffe, an arm of a criminal regime. I rather mean that the statements are abusive to understanding the history. As yet nobody has done any comparison study of claims, credited victories and losses, and likely never will due to lack of documents. Therefore statement that Luftwaffe victories were more accurate than any other (or most of it) is just unfounded.

Quote:

My objective for asking about Eder is to establish the possibility about the "Twelve" jet claims always associated with him. It has been pointed out that the fifty days to acquire his jet kills has been with Karl's help(many thanks for that) been extended to eighty days.....a far more realistic time allowance. I asked about his honesty because I am no expert on that, but after the Walther Dahl saga I am a bit realistic to the possibility that what has been "fact" for seventy years might not actually be so. Fact is there is no flugbucher/abschussemeldung or abschusselist that shows evidence of Eder's claims, but that doesn't mean he didn't make them. With Erich Rudorffer we have the same twelve total of jet claims, only two were generally written about, yet after viewing his flugbuch (one of these wasn't correct) twelve proved to be the correct number, though they were later than expected.
I understand the proper approach should be, what he claimed first, what has been initially verified, and what was finally credited. Only after that it is possible to check if any of those claims/victories match to any losses/combats. Aside, I am not sure if victories of so late period of the war were ever confirmed or approved.

Quote:

My co-author John Foreman always said that if JG26 claimed they would match Allied loses very well, if JG 2 claimed not very well, if both claimed again not very well, but he would accept that it was JG2 not JG26 overclaiming.
As long as we do not know, how the verification process looked like and what were differences between JG 2 and JG 26 subordination in this regard, we cannot make such statements. My impression is, that intelligence officer quickly received a list of wrecks found, and then did a preliminary elimination of claims. Therefore JG 26 looks much better on paper, but we do not know the reality. We also do not know, how many of the victories were shared ones. Plus of course, JG 26 got credit for aircraft lost to another reason.

Quote:

Regarding been lost in another way, actually I am in agreement, in films made during the war British bombers were always reported as lost to flak, whereas the vast majority fell to fighters. Even a pilot being shot down may have been surprised and thought flak, yet could have been caught by a fighter.
During the night all cats are grey. I am talking about day operations in large numbers. There are numerous instances of aircraft going down to technical reasons, collisions, friendly fire, flak and other. I did not do research for any large scale, selected combats only, so no general conclusion, but a statement of fact.

Best regards

Franek

Nick Beale 21st December 2018 15:52

Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Hector (Post 262486)
the concept of "confirmed claims" is well and truly an utterly useless construct by now...

It's a lot safer if you translate anerkannt as "recognised" or "accredited", I think.

Johannes 21st December 2018 16:46

Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
Hi Guys

Firstly Franek it is true that crash-sites were investigated, claims against the Russian's were usually behind enemy lines, so no chance there, with JG2 they claimed a lot over the sea, again not much chance to investigate there.

As Nick states Emil Lang was with JG26, yet still managed to overclaim. We(TOCH) had established that Lang had a couple of months of huge claims in Russia, this was worked with his rottenflieger Reinhold Hoffmann a pure case of each confirming the others claims.....mostly non-existant, yet another of Lang's rottenflieger Alfred Gross doesn't appear to have been part of this, when Hoffmann and Lang part company their claims became unspectacular! You would imagine that he would not be able to achieve such crimes with JG26, however he was with the Stab.II./JG26, and very possibly flew only with Alfred Gross, therefore able to maintain the deception within a generally honest Geschwader.


As Nick has established II./JG2 had a horrendous record of overclaiming in Afrika, but the JG26 as above......one man making the others look bad. The ever so fantastic claims system should work, but they didn't consider like minded abusers of the system, basically you couldn't do it alone.


As for the Luftwaffe being part of an evil regime, I should imagine that there was a higher percentage of hard-liners here than in the army, but most pilots were not like this and only wanted to get through the war, and many not to talk about it again. Wasn't Heinz Knoke shunned at reunions for his political views! Anyway TOCH is to talk about the Luftwaffe not Nazism., but I have noticed that hard-liners were very often the worst over-claimers.


regarding other Airforces overclaiming just check USAAF gunners claims 340 claims one day to Luftwaffe twenty loses, and what about Douglas Bader, seems every Nation has it's liars.

With Georg-Peter Eder all I am trying to establish is where the twelve jet kills data came from? As to his claims there pattern doesn't look like an overclaimers i.e huge numbers over a short period...….again opportunism with a corruptible rottenflieger, Eder seems not to have used a regular rottenflieger, and as Nick points-out III./JG2 was the least scoring of JG2's Gruppen……………….but unless expertly cross-examined I don't know the truth, and contrary to what you say claims are being cross-examined......by Nick for a start.


Kind Regards


Johannes

Franek Grabowski 21st December 2018 22:53

Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Johannes (Post 262508)
Hi Guys
Firstly Franek it is true that crash-sites were investigated, claims against the Russian's were usually behind enemy lines, so no chance there, with JG2 they claimed a lot over the sea, again not much chance to investigate there.

Overclaim over sea is higher not only because it is not possible to count wrecks but also because no crashsites are not visible, which makes assessment rather difficult. On the ground you could see crashsite, smoke, wreck, etc.

Quote:

As Nick states Emil Lang was with JG26, yet still managed to overclaim. We(TOCH) had established that Lang had a couple of months of huge claims in Russia, this was worked with his rottenflieger Reinhold Hoffmann a pure case of each confirming the others claims.....mostly non-existant, yet another of Lang's rottenflieger Alfred Gross doesn't appear to have been part of this, when Hoffmann and Lang part company their claims became unspectacular! You would imagine that he would not be able to achieve such crimes with JG26, however he was with the Stab.II./JG26, and very possibly flew only with Alfred Gross, therefore able to maintain the deception within a generally honest Geschwader.
Can you prove that Lang intentionally produced fake combat reports?

Quote:

As Nick has established II./JG2 had a horrendous record of overclaiming in Afrika, but the JG26 as above......one man making the others look bad. The ever so fantastic claims system should work, but they didn't consider like minded abusers of the system, basically you couldn't do it alone.
A lot depends on circumstances. New environment, enemy's numerical advantage, there are several reasons for overclaim. Before you call someone dishonest you must prove that he produced fake report in bad faith.

Quote:

As for the Luftwaffe being part of an evil regime, I should imagine that there was a higher percentage of hard-liners here than in the army, but most pilots were not like this and only wanted to get through the war, and many not to talk about it again. Wasn't Heinz Knoke shunned at reunions for his political views! Anyway TOCH is to talk about the Luftwaffe not Nazism., but I have noticed that hard-liners were very often the worst over-claimers.
Despite post-war claims and allegations, no doubt due to requirements of the Cold War, Luftwaffe was considered quite a hard-core formation, and I do not see a pattern of Nazis and non-Nazis do not appearing together. I guess it was rather a matter of personal liking. And I do not see any reason to not to discuss such matters.

Quote:

regarding other Airforces overclaiming just check USAAF gunners claims 340 claims one day to Luftwaffe twenty loses, and what about Douglas Bader, seems every Nation has it's liars.
There is no problem with overclaim itself. The problem is with your words. What is your evidence that USAAF gunners were liars, or that Bader was a liar? I mean intentional providing false reports on enemy losses.

Quote:

With Georg-Peter Eder all I am trying to establish is where the twelve jet kills data came from? As to his claims there pattern doesn't look like an overclaimers i.e huge numbers over a short period...….again opportunism with a corruptible rottenflieger, Eder seems not to have used a regular rottenflieger, and as Nick points-out III./JG2 was the least scoring of JG2's Gruppen……………….but unless expertly cross-examined I don't know the truth, and contrary to what you say claims are being cross-examined......by Nick for a start.
I understand that, and and I am fully aware that a lot of bogus information are around, never supported by any evidence.
You cannot fully cross-check claims/victories vs losses without combat reports and narratives. Coincidence of time and place may be misleading. It is simple.

Best regards

Franek

Karoband 22nd December 2018 10:33

Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
Hello Johannes,

It will be up to you to determine if the following pieces of information are connected or not, and if they are relevant to your inquiry.

1. From flamesofwar.com Stormbirds: the Messerschmitt Me 262 "Stormvogel" with Mike Haught & James Brown:

"My first kill on the Me 262 came almost by accident, you could say. I had taken off in an attempt to intercept a high-flying reconnaissance Lightning. Ground-control vectored me on the target faultlessly. Not that it was difficult to spot, for he was drawing a nice broad condensation trail in his wake.

I approached out of the sun from behind and slightly above. When about 80 m (262 ft.) distant I ducked into the condensation trail, casting a quick glance down to check my instruments and gun indicator lights. When I looked up again a split second later, the Lightning filled my windscreen. I tried desperately to pull above him, but it was too late. There was an almighty crash, and then he disappeared.

I waited for a few seconds, expecting a wing to fall off, or an engine to flame out. But nothing of the sort happened. Just a few nasty dents, but my crate continued to fly."

-- Hauptmann Georg-Peter Eder, 7. Jagdgeschwader


2. From post No. 12 by Jochen Prien in the following thread:
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=43152

"... Hptm. Eder in particular did not file a claim on this day [6 Oct 1944], the P-38 that was mentioned earlier on as an 'early October claim' was the result of an erroneous reconstruction of an interview he gave many years ago, the correct date of this claim being 18 November 1944..."

3. From Prien etal., Die Jagdfliegerverbande … Teil 13/II, pp. 398-399:

"Sonnabend, 18 November 1944...
...Das Kdo. Nowotny meldete am spaten Vormittag den Abschuss einer P-38 sudostlich Schleissheim durch einem Flugzeugfuhrer der 1. Staffel; bei dem abgeschossenen Zweimot. handelte es sich offenbar um einen allein eingeflogenen Aufklarer, moglicherweise Eine P-38 H der 154th (Weather) Recce. Sqd. der 15th USAAF...
"

best regards,

Jim

Russell 23rd December 2018 02:59

Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
Hi all

Hermann Buchner held some interesting conversations with Chris Shores when he stayed at Chis's house many years ago. One of the topics they discussed was Georg Eder. Buchner said he flew as no 2 to Eder when he was in JG 7, and that if Eder made a claim then there was little doubt in Buchners mind that it was a shot down aircraft. Unfortunately Buchner had no dates or any other details. Also I understand that after he died Eder's combat reports were sold by his widow, and that this collection included all of his jet claims, none of which I have seen. I have seen the forms (on the web) for the two Spitfires on 17 August 1944, which Johannes appears not to have judging from his helpful spreadsheet.

Cheers

Russell

Col Bruggy 23rd December 2018 10:13

Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
Hello,

Here is one of the listings of Georg-Peter Eder's claims:

http://www.cieldegloire.fr/001_eder_p_g.php

Why do they bother?

Col

Johannes 23rd December 2018 11:19

Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
Hi Col

Many thanks for getting involved.

This abschusselist is a combination of details from the mikrofilms coupled with the jet claims, however I do not believe it is correct, the mikrofilms are reliable until 3rd December 1944, yet not a single claim is recorded for Eder, yet everybody else is included, if other pilots claims were excluded as well you can imagine a breakdown in recording the claims, but it seems to be just Eder's, therefore personally I have concluded that ALL his confirmed claims must have taken place after 3rd December 1944 yet before 22nd February 1945.


Kind Regards


Johannes

Johannes 23rd December 2018 11:24

Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
Hi Jim

Thanks for your input. If this story is factual then the P-38 claim was not confirmed, in fact the story states that the P-38 disappeared, therefore Eder wouldn't have seen it crash.


In the late 1970's I read in a book an Eder story, he shoots down four Allied aircraft, then gets shot-down himself, he thought from return-fire from a B-17 above him, he is badly wounded/injured and somebody within his ambulance congratulates him on his "four kills", yet this is not reflected in his abschusselist. Then he states that after his surrender the Americans starved him, which went on, but he states his weight dropped from 180 lbs to 98 lbs, he would himself have talked in kilograms anyway!


Kind Regards


Johannes

Johannes 23rd December 2018 11:53

Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
2 Attachment(s)
Hi Franek

There is no proof that Lang made false claims, we would need a sworn statement from his rottenflieger for that, and that would incriminate himself.

Can't remember the title, but TOCH covered Lang before on this subject. His claims were cross-matched against Russian losses ………...assuming this is a complete listing of Russian losses then I do remember his seventeen claims for 3rd November 1943 were really heavily checked.

What we established was that according to Horbert Hannig's publication that Lang have planned-out the day, almost like it was an attempted on the record, he planned to fly a certain number of sorties, each time with a single rottenflieger, Lang claimed heavily, but so would his rottenflieger, actually by memory on one sortie not a single Sowiet aircraft fell.

Foremost of his rottenflieger was Reinhold Hoffmann, Hoffmann was only making spectacular claims whilst witnessing Lang's spectacular claims, their partnership lasted only a few weeks, prior to this both, but especially Hoffmann showed no outstanding abilities in claiming Sowiet aircraft. When they both transfere to 9./JG54 from 5./JG54 again they revert to unspectacular claiming, actually I would say they didn't actually fly together at this time.

Nick states that Lang continues his overclaiming with St.II./JG26, another of his rottenflieger follows him there this is Alfred Gross who also was claiming with Lang at 5./JG54...……….but never in the way Hoffmann did. Anyway one would suspect Gross was Lang's enabler at St.II./JG26, but I don't think this is the case, it would appear again that they didn't actually fly together much, in fact 3rd September 1944 is the only proven day. Therefore there must be another explanation why Nick cannot match Lang's claims in the West with Allied losses, this could be that he doesn't have details of ALL the Allied losses, but actually whereas the Sowiets might be incomplete actually the Allied losses we do actually know. There is another possibility, assuming Nick is correct, and personally I think he is, then it's worth mentioning that those who have deemed the worst over-claimers seem to do this as Kommandeur, now with Erich Rudorffer his claims are linked with Kurt Tangermann, again here Tangermann does nothing before or after his time with Rudorffer, but I don't know but is it possible that a Kommandeur[ATTACH]Attachment 17511[/ATTACH]r could self certificate claims(Nowotny's claims the same as Kommandeur), there is absolutely no connection between anybody within Stab.II./JG26 and Lang! Only other thing I can suggest is that Gross and Lang did fly together, but JG26 being a bit more scrutinising that they claimed together but on separate days as to remove suspicion!

Anyway havn't finished my Lang witness listing yet, but I'll leave you with Rudorffer's, on days where he makes a single claim nobody else makes a claim, in my opinion he was flying without Tangermann(Broch maybe)and the claim was genuine, anyway whatever you think there is a definite pattern that appears with Lang, Nowotny and Rudorffer.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Dan History 24th December 2018 10:53

Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Johannes (Post 262600)
Can't remember the title, but TOCH covered Lang before on this subject. His claims were cross-matched against Russian losses

Hello and Merry Christmas, Johannes!

The thread in question was started by Evgeny Velichko, who is writing an article about Emil Lang - http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=51703

Kind regards,

Dan

Johannes 24th December 2018 11:24

Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
Merry Christmas to you to Dan, and thanks for the information.

According to the Norbert Hannig publication Lang did indeed plan his sorties on 3rd November 1943(Seventeen in a day) according to Hannig two war reporters had turned-up to film the days action. Now with regards to the accuracy of Hannig's recollection of the day we can judge this against Lang's claims, but Hannig stated that against his earlier statements over who was flying that day, the first sortie was flown with Peschke, the second with Gross, the third with Gross and the fourth with Hoffmann. Hannig also states that remaining pilots on the ground witnessed Lang shooting down two Jak-7's on his third sortie.

I have been looking hard at the claimers with 5./JG 54 and would say that Hannig was not involved in any of Lang's schemes(and oblivious to them?), even Gross doesn't seem obvious. Maximilian Stotz flew with this Staffel in early 1943, TOCH has discussed his overclaiming also in detail, personally I put it down to the arrival of their new Kommandeur Hans Hahn, again just a short period of spectacular claiming, then upon Hahn's loss Stotz's claims return to a level matching other staffel members, and again I can confirm that after the short period of spectacular claims by Lang and Hoffmann things return to normal once they seem not to be flying with each other anymore.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Snautzer 24th December 2018 12:41

Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
Would be interesting to see if the soviet airforce were strengthened or had new types at their disposal at the periods of the lesser scores. If only to rule that out.

Dan History 24th December 2018 14:05

Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Snautzer (Post 262653)
Would be interesting to see if the soviet airforce were strengthened or had new types

Looking at claims by Tanzer from JFV Teil 9/II, the chief pattern is that aces made numerous claims on the same days when their units were heavily engaged:

2 August 1942 - Tanzer's first victory - one of three for 12./JG 51 and a total of 12 for IV./JG 51

5 August - his second - 12./JG 51 - five, IV./JG 51 - ten

24 August - his third - the only one for 12./JG 51, IV./JG 51 - four

3 December - his fourth - 12./JG 51 - four, IV./JG 51 - eight

8 December - victories 5 and 6 - 12./JG 51 - five, IV./JG 51 - eight

9 December - his seventh - 12./JG 51 - all three that day

16 December - victories 8 to 11 - 12./JG 51 - 15, IV./JG 51 - 22

5 January - victories 12 and 13 - 12./JG 51 - three, IV./JG 51 - five

6 January - victories 14 to 17 - 12./JG 51 - 11, IV./JG 51 - 16

7 January - victory 18 - 12./JG 51 - two, IV./JG 51 - three

12 January - victory 19 - only one that day

15 January - victory 20 - 12./JG 51 - two, IV./JG 51 - four

16 January - victories 21 to 23 - 12./JG 51 - six, IV./JG 51 - eight

26 January - victory 24 - 12./JG 51 - two, IV./JG 51 - three

Insofar as it is possible to propose patterns on the basis of this limited summary, it appears that once a pilot became more experienced, he would play a greater role in large air battles and make more claims. After that, it is possible that such pilots were assigned to fly more sweep missions, in which they could make additional claims. It would be reasonable to disguise excessive claims by a single pilot or even a group by making them on a day when many air combat took place, helping to avoid suspicion.

Kind regards,

Dan

Snautzer 24th December 2018 15:29

Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
Nice, but i ment looking trough soviet eyes. Did they strengten their airpower at those times or/and were there better/more expierienced pilots/units that could make the lesser tally explainable.

Nick Hector 24th December 2018 17:13

Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
Hi all, here is what I can turn up for Eder's opponents and victims.
If anyone can update or correct, I'd be very grateful

Georg-Peter Eder

22.6.41/0923
I-16 "Rata"
MiGs of 126 IAP? They lost pilots Grigorii Ivanovich Alaev, Panfilov and Viktor Ivanovich Ushakov. 122 IAP lost Boris Vasilyevich Aganin KIA

13.7.41/1007
DB-3
VVS Western Front. Day's DB-3 losses include one from 207 DBAP, gunner was Matvei Aleksandrovich Badykov KIA

13.7.41/1023
I-16 "Rata"
Day's I-16 losses include Valentin Vasilevich Bobkov of 88 IAP, WIA flying from Bukhonki and Starshiy Politruk Pyotr Filippovich Sklyarov of 1 AE, 43 IAP KIA trying to land a damaged I-16 back at base

14.7.41/1116
DB-3
207 DBAP suffered at least 3 losses this date, crews of Lt. Viktor Dmitrievich Khominskij, Lt. Ivan Filippovich Erenkov (AE CO) and Lt. Pyotr Stepanovich Borodaenko. 96 DBAP suffered a loss as well, gunner Konstantin Vasilyevich Ferchuk KIA

24.7.41
Pe-2
411 BAP, OSNAZ. Crew details pending

26.7.41/1843
Pe-2
50 SBAP (one source says 410 SBAP). Entire Eskadrilya (seven aircraft in this instance) wiped out. Six shot down immediately, seventh crashed on landing back at base (underclaiming)

30.12.42/1155
B-17F Flying Fortress
PQ 14W/4857, western front @ 5000m
There were at least 9 claims all up
Overclaiming, only 3 losses: B-17F-5-DL 42-2975 of 423rd BS, 306th BG. Capt. John M Brady and crew all KIA except one man POW (first Douglas built B-17 to be lost); B-17F-30-BO 42-5078 of 366th BS, 305th BG, 1/Lt. Floyd E Love and crew all KIA and B-17F-10-BO 41-24449/KY-C or LL-B "Short Snorter" of 401st BS, 91st BG, 1/Lt. William D Bloodgood and crew all KIA

3.1.43/1135
B-17F Flying Fortress
PQ 14 West N/3884 @ 5500m
Those lost to fighters over the sea include B-17F-20-BO 41-24517/GN-O "Kali" of 427th BS, 303rd BG, 1/Lt. William H Goetz and crew all KIA; B-17F-27-BO 41-24608/BN-S "Yehudi" of "Yahoodi" of 359th BS, 303rd BG, 1/Lt. Frank A Saunders and one other POW, remaining 8 crewmen all KIA; B-17F-20-BO 41-24526/VK-J "Leaping Liz" of 358th BS, 303rd BG, 1/Lt. James B Clark and crew all KIA; B-17F-5-BO 41-24470/WW- "Sons of Fury" of 369th BS, 306th BG, 1/Lt. Charles W B Cranmer and crew all KIA

23.1.43/1355
B-17F-25 or 27-BO Flying Fortress
PQ 14 West N/3978 @ 6000m
303rd BG, 3 losses to fighters: 41-24580/VK-C "Hellcat" (often given as "Hellcat Agnes", aka "Monkey Business" of 358th BS, 1/Lt. Oran T Connor and 7 others POW, remaining 2 crewmen both evaded capture; 41-24584/GN-Q "Susfu" of 427th BS, 1/Lt. Harry A Robey Jr and one other KIA, 6 POW and 2 evaded capture and B-17F-27-BO 41-24603/BN-Y "Green Hornet" of 359th BS, 1/Lt. Ellis J Sanderson and 4 others POW, 4 evaded capture and 1 KIA
(versus 4 claims and 1 “eV”)

13.2.43/0957
Spitfire
into sea N of Boulogne (PQ 1127/05) @ 1800m
Possibly 610 "County of Chester" sqn: Mk V EN896 of F/O J T Skibinski (Polish), evaded and awarded an MBE

28.2.43/1420
Spitfire (PR IV?)
15km E of Plouha
Was this AB128 of 543 sqn?

8.3.43/1402
Spitfire VB
Le Petite-Quevilly (near Sotteville) @ 6000m
AR547 of 313 sqn. F/L Benignus Stefan KIA

12.3.43/1305
Spitfire IX
PQ 0174/05 Ost @ 7000m
340 sqn. Only BS548/GW-B of Capt. O Massart was damaged
Lt. Julius-Friedrich Paulus claimed as well

28.3.43/1305
B-17F-60-BO Flying Fortress
PQ 1887/05 Ost @ 6500m
1st or 3rd BD, 8th AAF. Overclaiming, only loss was 42-29537/DF-L of 324th BS, 91st BG. 1/Lt. John A Coen and crew all KIA (attributed to Eder). 9 Others damaged

13.5.43/1635
P-47 Thunderbolt
PQ 1139/05 Ost @ 3000m
Likely a misidentified Spitfire, no P-47 losses listed for this date

29.5.43/1746
B-17F-20-DL Flying Fortress
PQ 3075/15 West @ 5000m
Very likely claimed against 42-3042/AW- of 337th BS, 96th BG. 1/Lt. Jack L McMath and six others all KIA, remaining three crewmen all POW. Last seen around this time. Attributed to Fw190s
Also claimed by Ofw. Herbert Hoenicke

26.6.43/1802
Spitfire VB
PQ 0175/05 Ost @ 5000m
EP413 of 118 sqn. P/O S A Jones baled out and rescued

29.6.43/2039
B-17F Flying Fortress
PQ 0168/05 Ost @ 7000m
1st or 3rd BD, 8th AAF. Overclaiming, no B-17s lost this date

4.7.43/1232
B-17F Flying Fortress
PQ1951/05 Ost @ 7000m
Overclaiming - actual losses were 8 shot down, 55 damaged. Only loss not otherwise accounted for was B-17F-80-BO 42-29967/PY- of 327th BS, 92nd BG. Lt. John J Campbell and crew all POW.

10.7.43/0828
B-17F Flying Fortress
PQ 0186/05 Ost Channel Front
1st or 3rd BD, 8th AAF. Only loss not otherwise accounted for was B-17F-85-BO 42-30050/LN- "Judy D" of 350th BS, 100th BG. 1/Lt. Charles L Duncan and 7 others POW, remaining two crewmen evaded (to fighters over the channel)

14.7.43/0752
B-17F-20-DL Flying Fortress
PQ 1077/05 Ost @ 8000m
Said to be 42-3049 "Windy City Challenger" of 422nd BS, 305th BG. Lt. John H Perkins Jnr and 6 others KIA and 4 POW (also attributed to von Lubich)

Unconfirmed claim
14.7.43/0815
B-17F-20-DL Flying Fortress eV
1-2km W of Goussainville (Dreux) @ 8000m
Said to be 42-3071/QE- of 331st BS, 94th BG. 1/Lt. Floyd B Watts and 5 others evaded capture, 2 crewmen KIA and 2 POW
(credited to Fw. Wilhelm Flegel von Farnholz)

16.7.43/2025
Spitfire
PQ 1172/Ost @ 9000m
11 Group. Overclaiming, no losses

30.7.43/1050
P-47 Thunderbolt
PQ 3225/05 Ost @ 6000m
Possibly a claim for P-47C-2-RE 41-6209/LM-C of 62nd FS, 56th FG. Lt. Robert Stover KIA (baled out of Felixstowe, not recovered in time)

30.7.43/1130
B-17 Flying Fortress HSS
PQ 3211/05 Ost @ 6000m
Definitely damaged was B-17F-20-DL 42-3046 of 351st BG, crashlanded at Woodbridge. Also possibly claimed as a HSS were B-17F-70-BO 42-29738/PU-I "Upstairs Maid" of 360th BS, 303rd BG. Crew of 1/Lt. Robert W Cogswell all returned. Fighters knocked out 2 engines and crew ditched 22 miles off Felixstowe; B-17F-90-BO 42-30183/BX- "Dry Run II" of 338th BS, 96th BG. Crew of Lt. Andrew W Miracle all returned. B-17F-90-BO 42-30157/OR-P "Hells Belle" of 323rd BS, 91st BG. 2/Lt. Donald S Van Der Heyde and crew all returned. Severely battle damaged and written off

8.4.44/1351
B-24 Liberator
SW of Salzwedel (PQ 05 Ost S EB/FB) @ 7000m
44th BG, 5 lost near Salzwedel and 453rd BG lost some in the area as well. Includes: B-24J-60-CO 42-99996/QK- of 66th BS, 2/Lt. William M Richardson and crew all KIA. 732nd BS lost B-24H-5-DT 41-28650/E3- of 1/Lt. James K Bingaman KIA, rest of crew all POW (was carrying 12 crew in total), 735th BS lost B-24H-10-CF 42-64453/H6- of 1/Lt. Jay Wells and crew all KIA except one POW; 733rd BS lost B-24H-10-CF 42-64464/F8- of 1/Lt. August V Bergman and crew all KIA except one man POW. 734th BS lost B-24J-130-CO 42-1100076/E8- of Lt. Robert R Swigert and crew all KIA, 1 POW. 753rd BS, 458th BG lost B-24H-15-FO 42-52392/J4- of 1/Lt. Edward A Sievers and crew all POW.
67th BS lost B-24H-5-FO 42-7767/NB-C "Shack Rabbit" of 1/Lt. George J Thom and crew all POW; 68th BS lost B-24J-60-CO 42-99987/WQ-S "Pizz and Moan" of 2/Lt. Warren H Barry and crew all POW except 1 KIA; B-24J-105-CO 42-109822/WQ-O "Townsend's Terrible Ten" of 1/Lt. Raymond H Townsend Jr and 4 others KIA, 5 POW plus B-24J-125-CO 42-110020/WQ-Z of 2/Lt. William B Altemus and 6 others KIA, 4 POW 506th BS lost B-24J-100-CO 42-100423/GJ- of 2/Lt. Jack M Winn and crew all POW (apparently in collision with Fw190); plus B-24H-1-CF 41-29153/GJ-Z of 506th BS, 44th BG. 2/Lt. Robert H Marx & crew all POW 704th BS, 448th BG lost B-24H-1-FO 42-7679/FL- "The Beast" of 1/Lt. Percy H Schopfer KIA,rest of crew all POW (already damaged by Flak) 735th BS, 453rd BG lost B-24H-15-CF 41-29571/H6- of 2/Lt. Jack J Dixon and 6 others POW, 3 KIA. 787th BS, 466th BG lost B-24H-15-CF 41-29365/6L-J of 2/Lt. Daniel B Harris and crew all POW except 1 KIA. 786th BS lost B-24H-15-FO 42-52480/U8-K of F/O John T Fouts and crew all POW except 1 KIA. 784th BS lost B-24H-15-FO 42-52516/T9-P of 2/Lt. Harry E Sturdevant Jr and 7 others KIA, 2 POW. 786th BS lost B-24H-15-FO 42-52610/U8-D of 1/Lt. Kenneth R Kessenger and 3 others KIA, 5 POW
(NOTE: All other losses were listed as being due to causes other than fighters)

9.4.44/1058
B-24 Liberator
Bay of Kiel (PQ 15 Ost N/SB) @ 7000m
2nd BD, 8th AAF, 31 Bombers lost this day. 68th BS, 44th BG lost B-24D-160-CO 42-72858/WQ-U "Pistol Packin' Ma Ma" of 1/Lt. Hiram C Palmer and crew all interned in Sweden after fighter damage. 565th BS, 389th BG lost B-24D-15-CF 42-63691/EE- of Capt. Donald C Westerbeke and crew all POW except one man KIA. 577th BS, 392nd BG lost B-24H-5-FO 42-52097/DC- of 2/Lt. Robert H Griggs and crew all KIA. 735th BS, 453rd BG lost B-24H-10-FO 42-52240/H6- of 1/Lt. Keith O Hamby and crew all interned in Sweden after fighter damage whilst 752nd BS, 458th BG lost B-24H-5-DT 41-28667/7V- of 1/Lt. Walter E Mangerich and crew all interned in Sweden after fighter damage. 755th BS lost B-24H-15-FO 42-52423/J3- of 2/Lt. Joseph M Stroup and 1 other KIA, 8 POW
(NOTE: All other losses were listed as being due to causes other than fighters)

9.4.44/1110
P-47 Thunderbolt
Bay of Kiel (PQ SA-SB) @ 6000 or 7000m
8th AAF. Losses include 42-8434/PE-V "Desiree Y" of 328th FS (from 487th FS). Lt. Frederick A "Pappy" Yochim POW and P-47D-5-RE 42-8499 "the Georgia Peach" of 350th FS, 353rd FG. Lt Richard A Stearns Jnr, POW

11.4.44/1100
B-17 Flying Fortress
1km S or 15km N of Fallersleben (PQ 15 Ost S/FB) @ 6000m
Possibly 42-30649 of 327th BS, 92nd BG

13.4.44/1357
B-17G-20-BO Flying Fortress
Darmstadt area (PQ 05 Ost S/RS) @ 6500m
Judging by the timing, this could be 42-31433/SO- "Rum Pot" of 547th BS, 384th BG. 1/Lt. Clarence G Stearns and crew all POW except one man KIA
(Hubert Swoboda is another candidate for her demise)

24.4.44/1247
B-17 Flying Fortress HSS
Strassburg/Hagenau-Buehl (PQ 04 Ost N/AQ/BR) @ 6200m
1st or 3rd BD, 8th AAF. 41 bombers lost out of 754 dispatched. 407th BS, 92nd BG lost B-17G-20-BO 42-31529/PY-N of 1/Lt. Earl Howard Jr and crew all POW plus B-17G-30-BO 42-31921/PY- of 2/Lt. James E King and crew all KIA (crashlanding in Switzerland after fighter damage) 326th BS lost B-17G-30-BO 42-31914/JW- "Butch" of 2/Lt. Bernard Rosenfeld and crew all interned in Switzerland after fighter damage. 407th BS also lost B-17G-45-BO 42-97203/PY-P of 1/Lt. William W Parramore and crew all interned in Switzerland after fighter damage. 358th BG, 303rd BG lost B-17G-25-BO 42-31669/VK-J "Shoo Shoo Baby" of 2/Lt. Raymond Hofmann and crew all interned in Switzerland after fighter and flak damage plus B-17G-35-DL 42-107200/VK- of 2/Lt. Paul C Stewart and 6 others KIA, 3 POW (already damaged by Flak) 360th BS lost B-17G-80-BO 42-38204/PU-H of 1/Lt. Thomas R McClure and crew all interned in Switzerland after fighter damage. 366th BS, 305th BG lost B-17G-30-BO 42-31816/KY-V of Capt. Joseph R Lincoln and 7 others evaded, 2 KIA (attributed by 8th & 9th losses to Oblt. Werther from Resigny airfield (??)). 368th BS, 306th BG lost B-17F-110-BO 42-30856/BO- of 2/Lt. Robert E MacDowell and crew all POW except one man KIA. 367th BS lost B-17G-5-BO 42-31172/GY- crew of 2/Lt. Irwin Schwedok plus B-17G-20-BO 42-31758/GY-F of Capt. John J Stolz, both crews all interned in Switzerland after fighter damage. 423rd BS lost B-17G-20-BO 42-31539/RD-O of 1/Lt. Dale Ebert and crew all interned in Switzerland after fighter damage. 369th BS lost B-17G-30-BOs 42-31768/WW- of 2/Lt. Carol G Briggs and 42-31901/WW- of 1/Lt. William C Tarr, both crews all POW. 368th BS lost B-17G-1-VE 42-39776 of 1/Lt. John F Coughlin and 4 others KIA, 5 POW. 545th BS, 384th BG lost B-17G-75-BO 42-37885/JD-D "Frostie" of 2/Lt. Virgil R Broyhill and crew all interned in Switzerland after fighter damage. 547th BS, 384th BG lost B-17G-45-BOs 42-97221/SO-K of 2/Lt. Richard V Brouillard and crew all POW plus 42-97372/SO- of 2/Lt. Ralph B Haley and crew all POW except one man KIA. 545th BS lost B-17G-50-BO 42-102446/JD- of 1/Lt. Everett L Bailey and 5 others KIA, 4 interned in Switzerland after fighter damage. 560th BS, 388th BG lost B-17G-5-BO 42-31176 of 2/Lt. George J Gwinn and crew all POW (uncertain if it was due to fighters or Flak)
(Other losses were attributed to other causes such as Flak and engine-trouble etc or were known to have been shot down by other pilots)

29.4.44/1058
B-17 Flying Fortress
E of Braunschweig (PQ 05 Ost S/GB-7) @ 7500m
427th BS, 303rd BG lost B-17F-30-DL 42-3158/GN-Y "Max" of 2/Lt. James H Fisher and 7 others KIA, 2 POW. 545th BS, 384th BG lost B-17G-50-BO 42-102448/JD-P of 2/Lt. James A Bouvier and crew all POW except one man KIA. 614th BS, 401st BG lost B-17G-1-BO 42-31116/IW-O "Cawn't Miss" of 2/Lt. J H Singleton and 4 others evaded capture, 5 KIA. 615th BS lost 42-31521/IY-M "Badland Bat" of Capt. George Gould and crew all POW. 336th BS, 95th BG lost B-17G-20-DL 42-37988/ET-M "Flagship" of 2/Lt. John W Vilberg and crew all POW (possibly already damaged by Flak). 551st BS, 385th BG lost B-17G-5-BOs 42-31133 of 1/Lt. Hector J Garza and crew all POW plus 42-31174 of 1/Lt. Francis J Hart and crew all POW except one man KIA. 549th BS lost B-17G-30-BO 42--31773/M of 1/Lt. Charles R Johnston and one other KIA, 8 POW. 550th BS lost B-17G-40-BO 42-97078 of 2/Lt. William F Henry and 7 others POW, 2 KIA. 551st BS also lost B-17G-45-BO 42-97226/X of 2/Lt. Richard L Huntington and 7 others KIA, 2 POW. 549th BS also lost B-17G-20-VE 41-28759/DC-V of
Donald E Walker KIA, rest of crew POW (already damaged by Flak). 562nd BS lost B-17G-20-DL 42-37980/D of 1/Lt. Joseph D Coyner WIA-POW, rest of crew all POW as well with 2 others WIA. 708th BS, 447th BG lost B-17G-5-BO 42-31144 of 2/Lt. Arthur D Peper and crew all POW plus B-17G-15-DLs 42-37866/D of 1/Lt. Warren D Donahue and 7 others POW, 2 KIA plus 42-37868/B of 2/Lt. Carl J Blom and 5 others POW, 4 KIA 710th BS lost B-17G-5-BO 42-31217 of 2/Lt. Harold M Paris and crew all POW plus B-17G-40-BO 42-97135/N of 1/Lt. Charles H Marcy WIA-POW, rest of crew POW as well as one other WIA. 711th BS lost B-17G-15-VE 42-97501 of 2/Lt. Elmer D Johnson and crew all KIA except one man POW. 708th BS also lost B-17G-50-BOs 42-102421/M of 2/Lt. Charles R Dowler and crew all KIA except one man WIA-POW plus also 42-102479 of 2/Lt. Edgar P Farrell and 5 others POW, 3 KIA
(Other losses were attributed to other causes such as Flak and engine-trouble etc or were known to have been shot down by other pilots)

8.5.44/0938
B-24 Liberator
Sulingen-Nienburg/SW of Verden (PQ FS-FT-GT) @ 6000m
701st BS, 445th BG lost B-24H-20-FO 42-94957/MK- of 2/Lt. Willim H Peters and crew all KIA. 702nd BS lost B-24H-25-FO 42-95051/WV- of 1/Lt. John C Burnett and crew all POW. 734th BS, 453rd BG lost B-24H-20-CF 42-50278/E8- of Capt. John W Banks and 1 other POW, 8 KIA in collision after fighter attack with B-24J-125-CO 42-110025/E8- of 1/Lt. Dean Hart and 2 others POW, 7 KIA. 735th BS lost B-24-20-CF 42-50327/H6- of 1/Lt. Endicott R Lovell Jr and 6 others KIA, 2 POW plus B-24H-20-FO 42-94806 of 2/Lt. John B Mackay and 2 others POW, 7 KIA. 732nd BS lost B-24H-10-FO 42-52147/E3- of 2/Lt. Ray R Keith and 3 others POW, 6 KIA. 734th BS also lost B-24H-10-FO 42-52169 of 2/Lt. Thomas J Stilbert Jr and 7 others POW, 3 KIA. 788th BS, 467th BG lost B-24H-15-FO 42-52477/X7- of 2/Lt. Charles D Harrison and 5 others KIA, 4 POW
(Other losses were attributed to other causes such as Flak and engine-trouble etc or were known to have been shot down by other pilots)

12.5.44/1218
B-24 Liberator
Eifel (PQ 05 Ost S/PO-PN) @ 6500m
2nd BD, 8th AAF. Massive overclaiming. Piffer and Koehne teamed up to down
B-24J-130-CO 42-110042/NB-J- of 67th BS, 44th BG. 2/Lt. Lewis Ingram Vance and crew all POW except one man KIA
There were only two other losses in addition to the one above: B-24H-5-CO 42-73503/YM-Y "Marion" of 409th BS, 93rd BG, 1/Lt. Warren O Van Winkle KIA, rest of crew all POW and B-24H-10-DT 42-28715/YO- of 564th BS, 389th BG. Maj. Roger C Hamel and crew all POW

19.5.44/1245
B-24 Liberator
Quackenbrueck (PQ 05 Ost S/FQ-FR)
2nd BD, 8th AAF. 28 losses. 392nd BG lost B-24H-1-CF 41-29129/CI- of 576th BS, 1/Lt. Donald D Prell and 7 others KIA, 2 POW plus B-24H-15-CF 41-29474/GC of 579th BS, Lt. Charles L Felsenthal and crew all KIA near Hessen 1400UST; 492nd BG lost B-24J-140-COs 42-110151/9H- of 857th BS, 2/Lt. Alvin M Murray and 5 others KIA, 4 POW plus 42-110153/9A-R of 858th BS, 2/Lt. Lloyd H Herbert and crew all KIA. 859th BS lost B-24J-145-CO 44-40065/X4-D+ of 2/Lt. Haywood E Brantley and 6 others KIA, 3 POW. 857th BS also lost B-24J-145-CO 44-40088/9H- of 2/Lt. Roger J Brague and 5 others KIA, 4 POW. 858th BS also lost B-24J-145-CO 44-40133/9A- of Capt. James L Lewis and 7 others KIA, 3 POW (also damaged by Flak); 858th BS also lost B-24J-150-CO 44-40151/9A- of 2/Lt. Charles C Pratt and 6 others KIA, 3 POW; 857th BS lost B-24J-150-CO 44-40171/9H- "Boomerang" of 2/Lt. Charles W Arnett and crew all POW except one man KIA
(Other losses were attributed to other causes such as Flak and engine-trouble etc or were known to have been shot down by other pilots)

19.5.44/1255
2 x P-47 Thunderbolts
Nienburg (PQ FT-GT)
P-47D-28-RA Thunderbolt 43-25294/PI- of 360th FS, 356th FG. Edwin D Cook POW

22.5.44/1310
P-38J Lightning
Bay of Kiel @ 7000m
384th FS, 365th FG. Two losses P-38J-10-LO 42-68125/5Y- of 2/Lt. Milton S Damron POW (definitely attributed to fighters, Tralau) and P-38J-15-LO 43-28470/5Y- of 1/Lt. Howard V Kirkpatrick KIA (attributed to an Fw190)
Fw. Barschel claimed the other, so it seems

29.5.44/1235
B-17 Flying Fortress
Goerlitz/Bautzen @ 7500m
452nd BG. Includes 42-31358 of 729th BS, 2/Lt. Shirley A Parvin Jr and 7 others POW, 2 KIA (damaged by fighters, finished off by Flak); same BS lost B-17G-30-VE 42-97808 of 2/Lt. Stanley Lowell and crew all POW 728th BS lost B-17G-20-VE 42-97549 "The Round Tripper" of 2/Lt. Frank W Brogan and 3 others POW, 6 evaded capture (also damaged by fighters, finished by Flak)

15.8.44/1238 and 1240
2 x P-47D Thunderbolt
Houdan-Rambouillet/NE of Chartres (PQ AD-BD) @ 2000m and 3000m
373rd FG, overclaiming - only 4 losses: P-47D-11-RE 42-75510/U9- (ex-Gabby Gabreski machine from 56th FG) 1/Lt. William M Buttner KIA; P-47D-26-RA 42-28431/U9- of 411th FS, Capt. Everett Glenn King KIA; P-47D-11-RE 42-75529/U9-of 411th FS, 2/Lt. William R Sheppard evaded capture. 412th FS lost serial unknown of Capt. Walter E Knudson evaded (damaged then finished off by Flak)
(versus at least eight losses)

17.8.44/1153
2 x Spitfire IXs
Rambouillet/Nogent-le-Roi or N of Chartres (PQ BC-6 to BD-4)
2nd TAF. Apparently overclaiming

28.9.44
B-17 Flying Fortress
1st or 3rd BD, 8th AAF. Losses to fighters include B-17G-65-BO 43-37518 "Gini" of 751st BS, 457th BG, all 9 crew KIA plus B-17G-15-VE 42-97470 "Oh Kay" of 748th BS, 457th BG. All 9 crew POW
427th BS, 303rd BG lost 44-8335 of 1/Lt. Charles G Glasgow POW, rest of crew all KIA. 303rd BG lost 10 other aircraft

4.10.44
B-17G-70-VE Flying Fortress
44-8586 of 97th BG

4.10.44
B-17G-45-VE Flying Fortress
44-8043 of 429th BS, 2nd BG

Unconfirmed claim:
6.10.44
F-5C-1-LO Lightning
Zuiderzee
42-67128/128 "Dot + Dash" of 22nd PS, 7th PRG. Lt. Claude C Murray, evaded (assisted by Dutch Resistance)

9.11.44
2 x P-51s
8th AAF. 20th FG lost P-51D-5-NAs 44-13715/KI-K "Little Lady" of 55th FS, Lt. Edward A Loetscher KIA plus 44-13670/LC-S of 77th FS, Lt. John R Wilson KIA

21.11.44
B-17G-50-BO Flying Fortress
42-102484 "Helles Angels" of 359th BS, 303rd BG. 1/Lt A F Chance and crew all KIA (already damaged by flak)

21.11.44
2 more B-17s
1st or 3rd BD, 8th AAF. Day's losses include B-17G 42-38270 of 550th BS, 385th BG. Came down Koerbecke

Franek Grabowski 25th December 2018 18:08

Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
Johannes
Quote:

Originally Posted by Johannes (Post 262600)
There is no proof that Lang made false claims, we would need a sworn statement from his rottenflieger for that, and that would incriminate himself.

Not necessarily a sworn statement, but a substantiated statement from someone being there at the time would be an indication. I recall on the old forum there was several years ago a quote of a JG 54(?) airman, an ace with 49(?) Il-2 kills, who expressed some his opinions on other aces. I recall he was quite critical on Rudorffer, I think he noted that they flew a patrol and found no wreck following one of Rudorffer's combats. The other airman mentioned whose name I recall was Horst Ademeit, he in turn took victories of his younger wingmen. I have saved the post, but could not find it since.
Is it an evidence? Not sure, but at least it indicates that there was a problem.

Quote:

Nick states that Lang continues his overclaiming with St.II./JG26, another of his rottenflieger follows him there this is Alfred Gross who also was claiming with Lang at 5./JG54...……….but never in the way Hoffmann did. Anyway one would suspect Gross was Lang's enabler at St.II./JG26, but I don't think this is the case, it would appear again that they didn't actually fly together much, in fact 3rd September 1944 is the only proven day. Therefore there must be another explanation why Nick cannot match Lang's claims in the West with Allied losses, this could be that he doesn't have details of ALL the Allied losses, but actually whereas the Sowiets might be incomplete actually the Allied losses we do actually know. There is another possibility, assuming Nick is correct, and personally I think he is, then it's worth mentioning that those who have deemed the worst over-claimers seem to do this as Kommandeur, now with Erich Rudorffer his claims are linked with Kurt Tangermann, again here Tangermann does nothing before or after his time with Rudorffer, but I don't know but is it possible that a Kommandeur[ATTACH]Attachment 17511[/ATTACH]r could self certificate claims(Nowotny's claims the same as Kommandeur), there is absolutely no connection between anybody within Stab.II./JG26 and Lang! Only other thing I can suggest is that Gross and Lang did fly together, but JG26 being a bit more scrutinising that they claimed together but on separate days as to remove suspicion!
You can have a look at Andy Saunders' book on Bader's demise. There he analysed every loss and who could have been a victor. It turned out that three Spitfires fell down to friendly fire, thus quite significantly increasing the overclaim of JG 26. Unfortunately no sources are given, but it is quite enlightening.

As to Eder, I have once tried to contact his family, but with no reply. I do not know why, but I am quite intrigued by his post-war whereabouts. He was invlolved in some bogus stories of mid-1950s involving Mike Gładych, and I find it quite intriguing.

Best wishes

Franek

Johannes 26th December 2018 12:28

Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
6 Attachment(s)
Hi Franek

Your bogus stories item is actually most interesting, I am sure that some pilots made up such stories, but many others had things made up about them, and probably never ever knew about it in their lifetime.

I had looked at Rudorffer's claims, actually whenever he claims just one or two his rottenflieger doesn't claim, so I would suggest these are genuine, and I also don't think that Hugo Broch was involved, in fact I am thinking he was a genuine witness to Rudorffer's little days.

Have just completed my Lang/Hoffmann and Gross cross-examination, Seems that Gross was not Lang's rottenflieger with St.II./JG26, and Lang in each case was the only claimer, so we need a more informed TOCH member to advise on if a Kommandeur is treated differently whilst claiming(though so was Rudorffer, but still used Tangermann). Now TOCH looked into Maximilian Stotz, and we concluded that again over a very short period his claims became spectacular, and we concluded he was influenced by hisKommandeur Hans Hahn, then on Hahn's lose reverts to unspectacular claiming, well Lang flew with Stotz………...and Tangermann before his spectacular phase. Lang's rottenflieger were generally Reinhold Hoffmann and Alfred Gross, I am not at all sure that Gross was involved in the overclaiming, pretty sure that Hoffmann was, all this including Stotz was with 5./JG54, when Lang,Gross and Hoffmann move onto III./JG54 their claims are unspecatular, in fact Gross's never were!


Regarding Lang's super seventeen(eighteen by press) Norbert Hannig states these were achieved in four sorties two, seven, five and four making eighteen, in reality it was seven, one, five and four making seventeen, Hannig states that on the first sortie his rottenflieger was Peschke, the second Gross, the third Gross and Hoffmann, and the four Hoffmann, yet in reality Hoffmann would have been on all four, Peschke the first, Gross the second. Hannig also states that on the first sortie ALL of Lang's four cannons jammed and he returned with "two kills", yet it looks like this was the second mission(with Gross anf Hoffmann) which resulted in just "one kill", again I believe personally that this was a legitimate claim, and again Lang is not alone with Hoffmann. Hannig's statement is roughly matching the fact, but a little mixed-up, also it seems that Peschke would be mixed-up in the false claims(see attached.


With Nowotny we have been informed for decade of the famous schwarm with Dobele, Rademacher and Schnorrer, yet there is little evidence for this, again like Lang when with the St.I./JG54 Nowotny is claiming alone, but during his spectacular period he's claiming with Gerhard Loos and Anton Dobele, and when they part company both of these rottenflieger return to unspectacular claiming(see attached) don't think that either Schnorrer or Rademacher are involved.[ATTACH][ATTACH][ATTACH][ATTACH][ATTACH]Attachment 17525[/ATTACH][/ATTACH][/ATTACH][/ATTACH][/ATTACH]
Same can be said about the Graf schwarm, don't think that Alfred Grislawski was involved, and he was the only one of the four who did anything outside of 9./JG52...…..coincidence ?


Actually I had heard good things about III./JG54, if true this might explain the very obvious decline in the Lang gang's claiming. Hopefully a Russian loss expert can cross-examine my thoughts here.

As for Bader, fact he came up alone behind a whole staffel of Bf109's, didn't want to attack so dove away, another Spitfire came up behing the same staffel and saw one dive away, which he nailed...…..it being Bader, Bader never fired a shot, claimed he shot down two Bf109's and collided with another, Bader's victor was them himself shot down, whilst a prisoner and talking to Bader he realised his mistake and apoligised to Bader, yer Bader still maintained he was rammed by a Bf109, I believe he also avoided paying tax on his autobiography because he was a National hero...…...you need gal.


Kind Regards


Johannes

Alfred.MONZAT 26th December 2018 13:03

Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski (Post 262691)
You can have a look at Andy Saunders' book on Bader's demise. There he analysed every loss and who could have been a victor. It turned out that three Spitfires fell down to friendly fire, thus quite significantly increasing the overclaim of JG 26. Unfortunately no sources are given, but it is quite enlightening.


I have not read this book but... three friendly fire ? In the same combat ?



8 Spitfires were lost and one third would have fell to friendly fire ?


According to what I have 2 FTR and 6 were reported shot down by Bf 109s during Circus 68. They claimed 15 sure victories (+8 probables).


The Luftwaffe have one loss to Spitfire and another one, but not sure if related to the combat. They claimed 6 which were confirmed (one unconfirmed).


Not sure the Luftwaffe overclaimed a lot on this particular combat (overclaim was probably higher on the evening battle), even taking these three friendly fire as granted.


Feel free to correct me if I misunderstood something.

Franek Grabowski 26th December 2018 16:10

Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
Hi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johannes (Post 262713)
Your bogus stories item is actually most interesting, I am sure that some pilots made up such stories, but many others had things made up about them, and probably never ever knew about it in their lifetime.

I have been in touch with a son of a Soviet pilot downed in Murmansk area by a well known JG 5 pilot. There was a marked discrepancy between the accounts of both, and the Soviet pilot was the only loss, despite numbers claimed by the German pilot. This was based on post-war accounts.

Quote:

Actually I had heard good things about III./JG54, if true this might explain the very obvious decline in the Lang gang's claiming. Hopefully a Russian loss expert can cross-examine my thoughts here.
If it has not been done already, no doubt it will. The problem is that the Lw research is poor, and in fact nobody ever attempted to recreate a sort of RAF Form 541 for any German unit. It would help immenselly to understand the situation.

Quote:

As for Bader, fact he came up alone behind a whole staffel of Bf109's, didn't want to attack so dove away, another Spitfire came up behing the same staffel and saw one dive away, which he nailed...…..it being Bader, Bader never fired a shot, claimed he shot down two Bf109's and collided with another, Bader's victor was them himself shot down, whilst a prisoner and talking to Bader he realised his mistake and apoligised to Bader, yer Bader still maintained he was rammed by a Bf109, I believe he also avoided paying tax on his autobiography because he was a National hero...…...you need gal.
As far as the book explains it, Bader misjudged his approach, so following his attack he had to dive down to avoid collision. He certainly has not written his autobiography, as it was Paul Brickhill who was the author. There was some quarrel about share in royalties, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alfred.MONZAT (Post 262715)
I have not read this book but... three friendly fire ? In the same combat ?

Yes, Bader, and two aircraft of No 452 Sqn downed by the 452 Sqn airmen, who clashed with themselves. Several, but cannot say how many exactly, RAF losses do not match German claims, including Galland.

Leo Etgen 26th December 2018 16:40

Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
Hello Nick

Many thanks for posting your Eder claims list! I noticed that there is a victory included on 24 July 1941 for a Pe-2 but this does not appear on the list that I have for him which is taken from Die Jagdfliegerverbände der Deutschen Luftwaffe 1934 bis 1945 by Prien. Also, it now appears that he did not claim the P-38 generally attributed to him on 6 October 1944 but rather this was claimed on 18 November 1944 against a P-38 of the 154th Weather Reconnaissance Squadron, USAAF. I hope that you find this useful.

Horrido!

Leo

Alfred.MONZAT 26th December 2018 17:35

Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski (Post 262728)
Yes, Bader, and two aircraft of No 452 Sqn downed by the 452 Sqn airmen, who clashed with themselves. Several, but cannot say how many exactly, RAF losses do not match German claims, including Galland.

Are you sure ? Bader was supposedly shot down by Casson of 616 Squadron.

Finucane & co shot down 2 of their own squadron among their 5 victories and their victims were labelled as "shot down by Bf 109s" ? I wonder what specific source(s) the author used to get to this conclusion.

Crazy how efficient they were against their own compared against the ennemy. Well back to the subject, claims and losses that don't match, that's not uncommon but I can hardly believe this kind of friendly fire was common.

Franek Grabowski 26th December 2018 20:55

Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alfred.MONZAT (Post 262733)
Are you sure ? Bader was supposedly shot down by Casson of 616 Squadron.

Yes.

Quote:

Finucane & co shot down 2 of their own squadron among their 5 victories and their victims were labelled as "shot down by Bf 109s" ? I wonder what specific source(s) the author used to get to this conclusion.
Yes. Comparison of combat reports and other narratives, as well as comparison with German claims and losses. Prety convincing.

Quote:

Crazy how efficient they were against their own compared against the ennemy. Well back to the subject, claims and losses that don't match, that's not uncommon but I can hardly believe this kind of friendly fire was common.
This is one of the reasons of my doubts concerning GQ6 loss lists. Depending on what one means by common, I have found several such incidents, and one may wonder how many are not identifiable. My wild guess is about 20% to friendly fire.

Johannes 27th December 2018 11:04

Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
Hi Guys

Couldn't remember Bader's victor, but the name Cason I believe is correct, I tend to remember numbers better and thirteen kills for Cason.
The name Finuacane also sounds familiar, if I am remembering correctly he was know as "The Irish ace", and was as bad at over-claiming as Badar.

A pilot of JG5(can't recall name) once stated that JG5 thought it had been abandoned to the North, got second hand aircraft, and over-claimed as a matter of routine just to spite, I think this wound not include I./JG5 and I bet not all pilots over-claimed.


Actually there should be no reason why a Gruppe and especially a staffel should claim so much more than another in the same place and time, lets call then super-staffels, but they exist 9./JG52, 6./JG5 and 5./JG54 to name a few.


Anyway back to Eder, guess we can't take Hermann Buchner's word for his honesty, but his claims don't seem to be too bad...…..do they?


Kind Regards


Johannes

Nick Hector 27th December 2018 11:21

Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Johannes (Post 262765)
Hi Guys

Couldn't remember Bader's victor, but the name Cason I believe is correct, I tend to remember numbers better and thirteen kills for Cason.
The name Finuacane also sounds familiar, if I am remembering correctly he was know as "The Irish ace", and was as bad at over-claiming as Badar.

A pilot of JG5(can't recall name) once stated that JG5 thought it had been abandoned to the North, got second hand aircraft, and over-claimed as a matter of routine just to spite, I think this wound not include I./JG5 and I bet not all pilots over-claimed.


Actually there should be no reason why a Gruppe and especially a staffel should claim so much more than another in the same place and time, lets call then super-staffels, but they exist 9./JG52, 6./JG5 and 5./JG54 to name a few.


Anyway back to Eder, guess we can't take Hermann Buchner's word for his honesty, but his claims don't seem to be too bad...…..do they?


Kind Regards


Johannes

I am inclined to think he was quite good. It's up to you what you personally make of my claims to losses comparison, but I have definitely seen worse than Eder

Nick Hector 27th December 2018 11:36

Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo Etgen (Post 262730)
Hello Nick

Many thanks for posting your Eder claims list! I noticed that there is a victory included on 24 July 1941 for a Pe-2 but this does not appear on the list that I have for him which is taken from Die Jagdfliegerverbände der Deutschen Luftwaffe 1934 bis 1945 by Prien. Also, it now appears that he did not claim the P-38 generally attributed to him on 6 October 1944 but rather this was claimed on 18 November 1944 against a P-38 of the 154th Weather Reconnaissance Squadron, USAAF. I hope that you find this useful.

Horrido!

Leo


Thankyou, Leo. I always welcome corrections and additions. There have been many conflicting sources on the subject of Eder and it's very helpful to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff

Franek Grabowski 28th December 2018 15:12

Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
Hi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johannes (Post 262765)
Couldn't remember Bader's victor, but the name Cason I believe is correct, I tend to remember numbers better and thirteen kills for Cason.
The name Finuacane also sounds familiar, if I am remembering correctly he was know as "The Irish ace", and was as bad at over-claiming as Badar.

Buck Casson, already mentioned in the thread.
Paddy Finucane was indeed Irish, and a leading RAF ace of 1941-42 period. I have seen a comment by an airman, that it was claimed he filed bogus claims, but I am very cautious with such statements. Our knowledge on German acitivities in the period is limited to say the least, and we cannot say for sure if enemies of Bader or Finucane escaped unscathed, damaged or were shot down. I recall a case of another rather well known pilot, who claimed to force watery land a German flying boat and then to destroy it on the water - this is not reflected on the German loss lists.

Quote:

A pilot of JG5(can't recall name) once stated that JG5 thought it had been abandoned to the North, got second hand aircraft, and over-claimed as a matter of routine just to spite, I think this wound not include I./JG5 and I bet not all pilots over-claimed.
The pilot in question IIRC claimed he was in a combat with several aircraft, but actually there was only a single aircraft on landing pattern I think. This is not exactly on overclaim, when in the heat of the combat pilot makes inaccurate assessment of the enemy's damage.

Quote:

Actually there should be no reason why a Gruppe and especially a staffel should claim so much more than another in the same place and time, lets call then super-staffels, but they exist 9./JG52, 6./JG5 and 5./JG54 to name a few.
Actually, there could be a reason, but it may not transpire from sheer numbers. It is a matter of opportunity, experience of pilots and leadership. Look for example at the Polish No 302 and No 303 Sqns during the BoB. The former spend the time in the north of England and far and away from combat, the latter was in the heat of the battle. Their scores were markedly different. Also No 315 Sqn, under the leadership of S/L Horbaczewski took the lead in the PAF, as noted by pilots, die to his keenness and will for combat. This phenomena is visible between the Polish Squadrons in various periods.
On the other hand I have seen comments that certain pilots may have been favoured for various reasons and send to intercept the enemy in the first place. Obviously this reflected on their score.
So, it is entirely possible that some units fared much better, but it would require a much more in depth research in particular units, and it would be a hectic job now.

Best regards

Franek

focusfocus 28th December 2018 21:46

Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
Hello Nick

Some additions about Eder's "abschusse" from my research

30/12/42
his victim:42-2975(423°Sqd,306°BG) crashed "Port-Louis/Riantec" Quadrat 14 West 48--
Shared (1/6) with Mayer,Knappe,Schnell,Bruno Eder (same family?),Ebert....all these claims in the same Quadrat 14 West 48--

Other two losses crashed in the Quadrat 14 West 59--
42-5078(306°Sqd,305°BG) crashed "Pointe de Tremazan" Landunweg over the sea
41-24449(401°Sqd,91°BG) crashed off Portsall
these two claims by May,Tartsch,Godt,Schmidt:all their claims in the Quadrat 14 West 59--

13/02/43:09.57h
his victim:BS 247(340°Sqd Free French),OR the other (serial unknown) of 340°Sqd damaged and crashed in England,OR BR 142 (64°Sqd) crashed over the sea off Boulogne during Circus 262.

the Spit of 610°Sqd(EN 896) shot down after 12.00h with 3 Spit of 485°Sqd during Rodeo 168
Claims by Becker,WF.Galland,Naumann,Hoppe

28/02/43
I did not find a claim by Eder this day and no losse of 453°Sqd

08/03/43
No Spit of 313°Sqd:this shot down around 15.00h off Plouha/Plouezec in Bretagne Quadra 14 West N/39--
Claims by Buteweg 14 West N/3917

the victim of Eder is in Normandie ("Le Petit-Quevilly"):340°Sqd Free French
BS 312 Sgt/Chef Paul Hubidos
Shared (1/2) with Glunz (JG26)

28/03/43
42-29537(91°BG) shared (1/2) with Bolz

29/05/43
Impossible,shot down E. of Clayes (10 km of Rennes):Quadrat 14 West/29--

The claim of Eder is in the Quadrat 15 West /3075 (over the sea)

26/06/43
Possible,but also possible EN 128 316°Sqd crashed "Le Havre"
The two (316°Sqd and 118°Sqd) claimed by Eder and Karch

17/08/44
Claims "fanciful,ridiculous":two spit who crashed on three Sherman! and destroyed them!
I will develop more tad.

Best Regards Michel

Leo Etgen 29th December 2018 17:00

Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
 
Hi Michel

Many thanks for your comments regarding the claims and possible victims of Eder. I noticed that Tony Wood in his claims lists has both Bolz and Eder claiming B-17 four-engined bombers on 28 March 1943 whereas Jochen Prien in Die Jagdfliegerverbände der Deutschen Luftwaffe 1934 bis 1945 lists Bolz with a Spitfire and Eder with a B-17 on 28 March 1943. I hope this helps.

Horrido!

Leo


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