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-   -   Late war Bf 109 pictures source (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=27108)

Marc-André Haldimann 30th April 2019 17:54

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Again on offer is this shot of Bf 109 G-6/R2 W.Nr. 165 259 (?) "Gelbe 2" (?), 3./NAGr. 13, Nancy-Tomblaine, late 1944. Location and possible W.Nr. courtesy of Steve Sheflin, Bf 109 from Anton to Toni Group, FB, 13 December 2018.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Org-Photo-U...8AAOSwSldcx8c6

Marc-André Haldimann 17th May 2019 00:16

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
One of the those unexpected and so surprising photos: at least 4 Bf 109 G fuselages from former 101 Vadaszezred stored at Budapest Matyasföld airfield, photographed 1 May 1948 by László Rósza, MTI, via https://archivum.mtva.hu/photobank/i...Q1UDVxcTJWUT07

With all my thanks to Tamás Derner, from Magyar Kir. Honvéd Légierö Group, FB, 16 May 2019, for the pointer.

Cheers
Marc

edwest2 17th May 2019 00:23

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
There was a secret aircraft factory in Hungary during the war.

https://gizmodo.com/the-caves-that-h...ory-1741803956

Marc-André Haldimann 17th May 2019 00:30

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thanks Ed, for putting this cave factory together with this Matyasföld find. Was it also an MWG operated plant ?

Cheers
Marc

edwest2 17th May 2019 00:46

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi Marc,

Is MWG the same as Manfred Weiss?

Ed

Marc-André Haldimann 17th May 2019 08:09

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi Ed,

To my knowledge, MWG stands for Magyar Wagon és Gépgyar (MWG). This plant was created for producing railway engines and carriages. Information in english over this producer can be found in Dénes Bernad and Charles Kliment's books "Magyar Warriors: The History of the Royal Hungarian Armed Forces, 1919-1945" here:

https://books.google.ch/books?id=TP4...20Györ&f=false

So Manfred Weiss was a different producer but which pooled up with MWG and others for the war effort.

Cheers
Marc

Marc-André Haldimann 10th July 2019 08:18

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi there, Gang,

Thanks to Tomas Prusa's pointer, we have here a superlative color photo of a WNF DIANA-Tischnau/Tisnov built Bf 109 G-10/U4, thought to be from the W.Nr. 612xxx production batch, exhibited at Tisnov square in May 1945 after the liberation of the city.

Source: City of Tisnov exhibition via modelforum.cz, courtesy of Jindrich Rosa, 9 July 2019.

https://www.modelforum.cz/viewtopic....SNkQM#p2230502

Cheers
Marc

Falcon 10th July 2019 17:51

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Nice!
The plane does not look airworthy. Is there the WNr. still on the tail? I think there are black numbers...

Btw, that is the same, right?
https://me109.info/display.php?a=e&l=en&fid=11068

Nick Beale 10th July 2019 18:13

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Falcon (Post 271591)
Nice!
The plane does not look airworthy.

It looks to me as if the wing root fairing is missing.

Marc-André Haldimann 11th July 2019 10:18

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Nick,

You're absolutely correct; this plane was moved with wings removed from the Tisnov railway station to the town square, hence the missing wing root fairing.

Falcon,

You're correct, it is the same plane at the same location; too bad the W.Nr. in its usual WNF position, can't be read. The known W.Nr.'s of the other planes found at war's end in the DIANA WNF tunnel factory next to Tisnov do point towards a W.Nr. in the 612 8xx range.

Cheers
Marc

Marc-André Haldimann 17th July 2019 15:36

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Dear Gang,

Here we go with some very interesting photos currently on offer:

1. https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Luftwaf...gAAOSwbL1dK3XL
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/tjgAA...XL/s-l1600.jpg

2. https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Luftwaf...oAAOSwKQJdK3eK
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/ZqoAA...eK/s-l1600.jpg

3. https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Luftwaf...0AAOSwkvxdK3bL
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/TT0AA...bL/s-l1600.jpg

4. https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Luftwaf...AAAOSwxgZdK3gk
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/FSAAA...gk/s-l1600.jpg

If not mistaken, those four photos do depict Erla built Bf 109 G-14 W.Nr. 46x xxx "Weisse 13" from 13./JG 27.

Photo 1 is captioned in Jochen Prien, Peter Rodeike and Gerhard Stemmer, Messerschmitt Bf 109 im Einsatz bei der III. und IV./Jagdgeschwader 27, 1995, p. 441 as showing Ogfr. Fritz Krüger standing in front of this machine.

Photos 2-4 closely match the second photo published by Prien, Rodeike and Stemmer which caption informs us this is Lt. Wolf Otto aboard "Weisse 13". They probably were taken at the same time with the same pilot.

A new set of photos was put to auction today:

5. https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Luftwaf...0AAOSwsIBdLheN
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/7O0AA...eN/s-l1600.jpg

6. https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Luftwaf...UAAOSw~YldK3kA
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/zIUAA...kA/s-l1600.jpg

7. https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Luftwaf...4AAOSwGbldLhjV
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/WE4AA...jV/s-l1600.jpg

8. https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Luftwaf...wAAOSwItRdLhgr
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/qVwAA...gr/s-l1600.jpg

9. https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Luftwaf...YAAOSwl5FdLhkt
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/BUYAA...kt/s-l1600.jpg

10. https://www.ebay.de/itm/3x-Foto-Luft...YAAOSwhJFdLiPr
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/z9YAA...Pr/s-l1600.jpg

Possibly from Ofhr. Müller's collection, as evidenced by photo 10, this second set shows another Eral built Bf 109 G-14, possibly "Gelbe 4", also late 1944. Ofhr Müller is recorded to have survived after bailing out from his stricken Bf 109 G-14 W.Nr. 460 638 on 26 November 1944 near Mellinghof. Source: Prien/Rodeike/Stemmer, III. & IV./JG 27, 1995, p.463.


Are any further details known about the planes, pilots and location ? is the hangar in photo 9. known ?

Thanks in advance
Marc

Marc-André Haldimann 22nd August 2019 09:14

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
One of those unexpected photos which just showed up:
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/cZ0AA...p4/s-l1600.jpg

At least two wrecked Bf 109's from I./JG 4 can be recognised. The furthest away is IMHO a Bf 109 K-4, as evidenced by the position of the D/F loop base on the fuselage spine. Any ideas about the location ?

Source: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-WWI...0AAOSwSGtdXUp4

Cheers
Marc

S Sheflin 23rd August 2019 00:57

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi Marc,
I believe the fuselage in the left foreground has"K" gear doors.
Steve Sheflin

Marc-André Haldimann 23rd August 2019 16:35

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by S Sheflin (Post 273559)
Hi Marc,
I believe the fuselage in the left foreground has"K" gear doors.
Steve Sheflin

Absolutely correct, Steve: that makes at least two K-4's.

Thanks
Marc

Marc-André Haldimann 25th August 2019 19:10

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi there folks,

Auctioned for the second time this year a set of four photos depicting a Waldwerk or Reparaturwerk "near Linz", photographed in June 1945 by a member of Company B, 133rd Armored Ordnance Maintenance, 11th Armored Division.

1. https://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-photo-...cAAOSwFDBdXzgY
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/J0cAA...gY/s-l1600.jpg

2. https://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-photo-...4AAOSwxB9dXzjy
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/Wo4AA...jy/s-l1600.jpg

3. https://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-photo-...0AAOSwhwVdXzjB
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/ng0AA...jB/s-l1600.jpg

4. https://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-photo-...AAAOSwSHBdXzd4
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/LUAAA...d4/s-l1600.jpg

The location "near Linz" could match both with a delocalised facility of the Flugzeug- und Metallbauwerke GmbH - Wels which did repair and refit both Ju 87's and Bf 109's since 1940 or with the Messerschmitt GMBH aircraft factory of KZ Aussenlager Gusen, located some 19 km east of Linz, which produced since 1943 Bf 109's and Me 262's since Summer 1944.

Is there any clue to refine the location of this set of photos ?

Please notice that at least two airframes are WNF built Bf 109 G-14's (photos 1 and 2), the one seen in photo 1 having W.Nr. 510 224 stencilled under the windscreen, a highly unusual position.

Thanks in advance for any information allowing to pinpoint the location.

Cheers
Marc

Marc-André Haldimann 1st September 2019 13:51

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
As the chance would have it, here two US veteran photos posted on wehrmacht-awards.forum last July.

https://i.postimg.cc/54dDh960/121718-020719-jpg-1.jpg
This photo does show possibly an Mtt built Bf 109 G-14/AS "Weisse 4", from an unknown unit, discarded with some III Gruppe Fw 190's along an electrified railway line.

https://i.postimg.cc/LRSrvscQ/341518-020719.jpg
The second one, taken most probably at the same location as indicated by the landscape and the same electrified railway line shows a Bf 109 K-4 with the typical fuselage camouflage for the Mtt produced W.Nr. 330xxx-331xxx batches; "Weisse 6", from 9./JG 27 is already known thanks to another photo published by Jerry Crandall back in his Wings of the Black Cross 1, p. 18.

Any ideas about the unit of "Weisse 4" and the location of all those machines ?

Link for the original discussion: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...43#post8522943

Cheers
Marc

Kees Mol 1st September 2019 16:58

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi Marc,

Me 109K-4 Wnr.331420 (DB 605D 011100532) & Me 109G-14/AS Wnr.785821 (DB 605 AsMo 00711476) SE of Naunheim.

Greetz,

Kees

Marc-André Haldimann 1st September 2019 17:13

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kees Mol (Post 273999)
Hi Marc,

Me 109K-4 Wnr.331420 (DB 605D 011100532) & Me 109G-14/AS Wnr.785821 (DB 605 AsMo 00711476) SE of Naunheim.

Greetz,

Kees

Magic ! Thanks so much Kees ! Was there an airfield there or were they ready for railway shipment towards a Reparaturwerk ?

Cheers
Marc

Kees Mol 1st September 2019 18:02

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi Marc,

Me 109K-4 with green tailband (...JG 27).
From Allied Inspection Report : "Marshalling Yard SE of Naunheim".

Greetz,

Kees

Marc-André Haldimann 1st September 2019 18:33

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kees Mol (Post 274001)
Hi Marc,

Me 109K-4 with green tailband (...JG 27).
From Allied Inspection Report : "Marshalling Yard SE of Naunheim".

Greetz,

Kees

Thanks Kees ! Further to Bf 109 G-14/AS W.Nr. 785821 "Weisse 4"; it was reported MIA 18 December 1944, cause unknown, whilst being flown by Fhr. Karl Jettner, 9./JG 4. Source: BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/1170, p. 30 via George Morrison.

Cheers
Marc

Rottler 1st September 2019 18:48

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hello Marc,

the unit was 9./JG 6, not JG 4.
Source: Gen.Qu. loss return 29 Dec 1944 item 65.

Regards
Leo

Merlin 2nd September 2019 18:33

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Leo,

do you know what was the fate of the pilot during that event?

Matti Salonen 2nd September 2019 19:45

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Correct name is Ofhr Karl-Friedrich Fütterer, who was wounded.

Matti

Marc-André Haldimann 2nd September 2019 21:38

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rottler (Post 274005)
Hello Marc,

the unit was 9./JG 6, not JG 4.
Source: Gen.Qu. loss return 29 Dec 1944 item 65.

Regards
Leo

Thanks for correcting Leo, this was my mistake

Cheers
Marc

Marc-André Haldimann 2nd September 2019 21:42

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Matti Salonen (Post 274057)
Correct name is Ofhr Karl-Friedrich Fütterer, who was wounded.

Matti

Matti, thanks for your input. So the entry I had for W.Nr. 785821is wrong ? I had Fhr. Karl Jettner, missing 18 Dec. 44, cause unknown. Source as quoted above (BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/1170, p. 30).

What is the source for this discrepancy ? Is your data also from BA-MA ?

Thanks in advance for your help.
Marc

Matti Salonen 2nd September 2019 22:03

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
My info is from the NVM and checked also from the EKM-Verzeichnis.

I have not any Karl Jettner in any Luftwaffe aircraft crash.

Matti

Marc-André Haldimann 2nd September 2019 22:12

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thanks Matti,

For setting this record straight; it is highly appreciated. Is there by any chance also a location for this crash-landing ?

Sincerely
Marc

Rottler 2nd September 2019 22:20

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hello Gerhard,

in the Gen.Qu. loss return Fhr Jettner is listed as missing, the WNr. of his Bf 109 G-14 was 785821.
According to the Luftwaffe Kracker Archive Ofhr Fütterer piloted the Bf 109 G-6 WNr. 18587.

Regards
Leo

Marc-André Haldimann 2nd September 2019 22:27

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rottler (Post 274070)
Hello Gerhard,

in the Gen.Qu. loss return Fhr Jettner is listed as missing, the WNr. of his Bf 109 G-14 was 785821.
According to the Luftwaffe Kracker Archive Ofhr Fütterer piloted the Bf 109 G-6 WNr. 18587.

Regards
Leo

Ah darn... precise reference for Fhr. Jettner is GQM 13470/44, 28.12.44, 65. Still listed as missing...

Matti, your thoughts ?

Cheers
Marc

Rottler 3rd September 2019 17:07

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hello Marc,

in JFV 13/IV is listed:
18.12.44 9./JG 6 Obfhr Karl-Friedrich Fütterer verl. Luftkampf, Raum Andernach, Notlandung, 40%, Bf 109 G-6 18 587.
So the Bf 109 G-14/AS 785 821 was not piloted by Obfhr Fütterer.

Regards
Leo

Matti Salonen 3rd September 2019 17:35

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Darn to the second power! I have no thoughts. Obviously the least I can do is to re-check that NVM at BA-PA.

Matti

Marc-André Haldimann 3rd September 2019 23:47

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thanks in advance, Matti.

Looking forward for your findings.

Sincerely
Marc

Smith 18th September 2019 02:24

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Marc

In another thread here ("exceptional set of pictures ...") http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=22452
... you post a link to a history of Plana airport in the Czech Republic http://www.airport-cb.cz/en/page/31/history.html

Part way down that page is a photo of a Bf 109 used as an element in a war memorial. A google image search of that picture took me to this website ...
https://www.vets.cz/vpm/mista/obec/1445-plana/ ... with more pictures of the unveiling of the monument and the Bf 109.

Do you have any idea of the provenance of that 109? For example, I wonder if it was one of the aircraft referenced in the "exceptional set of pictures ..." thread above. Unfortunately those pictures cannot be viewed anymore (or I can't access them).

regards Don

ouidjat 18th September 2019 12:05

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kees Mol (Post 273999)
Hi Marc,

Me 109K-4 Wnr.331420 (DB 605D 011100532) & Me 109G-14/AS Wnr.785821 (DB 605 AsMo 00711476) SE of Naunheim.

Greetz,

Kees

Hello Kees,

Are you sure about "Naunheim" ? I don't find any railway in the vicinity of this city. But SE of Naunheim I find a Nauheim with a railway line.
So my question is: where is, in Germany, the Naunheim you are talking about? :)
Thank you.
Regards,
Franck.

Marc-André Haldimann 18th September 2019 12:56

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ouidjat (Post 274815)
Hello Kees,

Are you sure about "Naunheim" ? I don't find any railway in the vicinity of this city. But SE of Naunheim I find a Nauheim with a railway line.
So my question is: where is, in Germany, the Naunheim you are talking about? :)
Thank you.
Regards,
Franck.

Franck, Naunheim is actually a small town close to Koblenz in the Vordereifel: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naunheim

The tracks seen on both photos are from the Polch-Münstermaifeld vicinal rail line, a line closed in 1983:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahnst...Münstermaifeld

The actual location of those planes is just on the south east from Naunheim.

Cheers
Marc

ouidjat 18th September 2019 16:59

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
OK, thank you. I know where it is.
The thing being Wikipedia article says "nicht elektrifizierte Nebenbahn" ... What did you write above in your post of 1st or 2nd of September?
...
I see another problematic point:
The guy is missing in non occupied German territory on 18/12/1944 at Naunheim, SE area ...
Months later, his plane is found intact - for a machine having mysteriously disappeared it is intact - having done a belly landing - I suppose the pilot was alive enough to make it, but, still, no pilot news ... More, his machine was found exactly where the accident have been reported, right in the middle of a junk yard (!) situated close to Naunheim and waiting to be loaded on trains together with Fw190s and one K-4 (at least)

It's not luck, it's a miracle ...
Georg wrote 4+I and I was expecting JG6 RV bands.
...
Having said that my next question is: Are we sure 100% these photos were shot at Naunheim?
Following this thread I stupidly did change the place name I had before. It was/is indicated under the profile done by Claes Sundin ... And it's not Naunheim (Sadly, I don't remember it)


Regards,
Franck.

Marc-André Haldimann 19th September 2019 21:04

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hey Franck,

Good questions as usual. I will tackle them as soon as possible, hopefully thus week-end.

Cheers
Marc

Nick Beale 19th September 2019 21:57

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
2 Attachment(s)
Here's the A.I.2(g) report on the Naunheim Marshalling Yard for reference.

Marc-André Haldimann 19th September 2019 22:06

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Beale (Post 274973)
Here's the A.I.2(g) report on the Naunheim Marshalling Yard for reference.

Much indebted, Nick.

Franck, the reference to the location is clear, but could be actually Naunheim bei Wetzlar. There is an important marshalling yard due south of Naunheim bei Wetzlar and east of Wetzlar, with nowadays a small airfield. Wetzlar was taken by US troops on 29 March, it is a good fit with the date of the A.I.2(g) report. Could this be the mentioned Naunheim ?

Cheers
Marc

John Manrho 19th September 2019 23:34

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
No no....imho this is the Naunheim south of Polch.


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