Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"
 

Hello all

Years ago,I read that in 1945,the destruction of a "panzer" was equivalent to an aerial victory.

What is the reality of this story:an "urban legend"?

Peter Duttmann is usually credited with two destroyed "panzer",the one claimed on 03/04/45 is counted as "luftsieg" ?

michel
regards

Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"
 

Not listed as a claim in the book by Johannes Mathews and John Foreman: Luftwaffe Aces Biographies and Victory Claims volume 1.

Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"
 

Hi,

None of the tanks or other ground targets destroyed by Peter Düttmann were included in his aerial victory tally. His 139th victory on 19 March 1945 was a La-5, he then claimed various trucks and tanks destroyed and a Mustang without witness, and his 140th aerial victory came on 5 April 1945, an Il-2 m.H. None of the ground targets listed as destroyed in his Flugbuch are included in his victory tally.

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com/earticles

Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"
 

Hello Andy,

It would seem that Düttmann did consider the 2 destroyed tank claims as part of his victory total. In his leistungsbuch, Düttmann records 150 confirmed victories against airplanes, and 2 confirmed victories against tanks, to arrive at his total of 152 victories. Incidentally, he also claimed 1 unconfirmed tank destroyed, as well as 42 unconfirmed (ohne zeugen) victories against airplanes.

Here are the 2 pages of Peter Düttmann's leitungsbuch documenting his panzer victories and his victory total.

Russ

Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"
 

Hi Russ,

Indeed, but the tally written immediately after his final flight in the Flugbuch does not include the tanks, and limits his aerial victory claims to 150 aircraft, with the two tanks listed separately. Also, the tanks aren't tallied in the Flugbuch, with it ending at 150 for the final aircraft. Is there a chance the list in the Leistungsbuch is post-war? And thanks again for sending me the copy of this document.

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com/earticles

Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"
 

In summary,it seems that this "legend" that the destruction of a tank equivalent to an aerial victory in 1945, does not rest on anything serious.

Thank you very much for your answer.

michel

Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"
 

Hello

Maybe a stupid question, but what was the function of Leitungsbuch?

TIA
Juha

Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"
 

Good morning Russ,

cool item !
Can we agree that he who talks about 152 Düttmann kills means 150 aircraft and 2 tanks ?
http://www.jg52.net/ritterkreuztraeger/peter-duttmann/

Have a nice weekend,

Michael

Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"
 

Hi Guys

It is fact that 1945 panzer destruction counted as "luftsieg", so not urban legend. However John Foreman and myself did not consider a tank able to fly, therefore we did not include them in Luftwaffe pilots totals. Georg-Peter Eder also included three tanks in his total so Düttmann was not alone. Düttmann himself had many unconfirmed claims, and a few he thought were confirmed were not, this reduced his total to 147 confirmed and 45 unconfirmed.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"
 

Hello Michael & Johannes,

Yes!!

But based on Johannes expertise regarding luftwaffe claims, I would think his total for Düttman is more accurate.

Regards,

Russ

Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"
 

That's true.

Wikipedia says that Düttmann claimed his last victory on 26 April 1945.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Düttmann
Is this a typo for his tank kill on 24Apr as indicated on your scan ?

Kind regards,

Michael

Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"
 

Hello Michael,
Yes, the wikipedia entry is a mistake, possibly caused by a misread of the date in Düttmann's flugbüch. (The handwritten digit 4 could be mistaken for a 6.)
But the tank destruction was definitely claimed by Düttmann on April 24, 1945.
Russ

Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"
 

Good morning,

is Peter Düttmann the only ace with 100+ kills of whom some authors reported a total score that included tanks ?

Michael

Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"
 

Hi Michael

Can't say that I recall any other "100+" aces with 1945 panzer claims added to their totals. However John and myself did also exclude Fesselballon, simply they may float in the air, but don't fly/turn. One pilot here springs to mind Hans Beißwenger. By memory we had a total of 150 confirmed claims for him, plus one unconfirmed, plus one fesselballon which adds-up to be his largely accepted total of 152. John and myself only counted aircraft claimed in the air, no tanks/fesselballon/aircraft destroyed on the ground.

Another ace with panzer claims included in his total was Georg-Peter Eder with three.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"
 

In my archives,I have also Hans Ellendt (JG52),two T-34 on 06/04/1945,Karl-Heinz Messer (JG4),one "Panzer"

I have many doubts about the veracity of these Tank destructions with the weapons of edge (20 mm (30 mm) cannons and 13 mm machines guns,by pilots specialized in the "hunt".

SG's pilots (specialized),having to use anti-tank shells (37 mm!) with Tungsten core.

Michel

Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"
 

Good evening Johannes,

oh, very interesting.
Can you tell me the dates for Beisswenger's balloon kill and his unconfirmed claim ?

Kind regards,

Michael

Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"
 

But surely, Johannes, that is you and John adjusting the pilots' victory claims tallies according to your own criteria and not the Luftwaffe's?

Thus, Beisswenger is 'robbed' of the balloon he shot down on 23rd September 1941, which would have been his "30th" victory and his tally reduced down to less than the accepted figure on nobody's authority but yours?

And whereas a balloon might not turn and shoot back the same way any other aircraft can, surely the flak defending it meant that it was not in any way a complete and utter sitting duck. The shooting down of a balloon was surely nobody's idea of a non-achievement.

Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"
 

Whilst I can see your point of view, you could just as easily apply that reasoning to vehicles, trains, gun emplacements and buildings. You have to draw the line somewhere.
Peter

Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"
 

Hi,

The Luftwaffe itself drew that line, and balloons were included as aerial victories, whereas tanks, trucks, bridges etc. were not. See the attached from 1944, which lists the various victories against ground targets in one section of the daily report, and then the aerial victories (including a Fesselballon).

I'm a little doubtful about this "tanks being counted as aerial victories" story. There is a dubious, seemingly post-war entry in the Düttmann Leistungsbuch, and checking out the Eder story in Caldwell, the author notes that Eder filled out tank destruction reports for the Shermans, so I have strong doubts that they would have counted towards his aerial victory tally.

Michel, regarding Messer, I see he recorded the destruction of tanks and other ground targets in his Flugbuch (as did many other fighter pilots involved in strafing missions), but did he actually include these in his aerial victory tally?

I'd be happy to see any primary source evidence about this subject.

Cheers,
Andrew A.

Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"
 

Good morning Gentlemen,

in WW1 balloon kills counted as aerial kills. The top Belgian ace Willy Coppens would not have been an ace at all without his balloon kills.
http://aces.safarikovi.org/victories/ww1-balloon.html
In WW2 balloon kills were more often counted separately, the top ace of that profession being Mr. Baljasnikov.
http://soviet-aces-1936-53.ru/abc/b/balyashnikv.htm
I agree with Johannes and prefer to indicate WW2 balloon kills as
score(+balloon kills)
in my notes.

I suppose Beisswenger claimed his unconfirmed kill early in his career ?

Kind regards,

Michael

Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"
 

I have been following this discussion with interest.

I believe Luftwaffe scored their most balloon victories during the Battle of Britain. Many Luftwaffe fighters took pot shots at the London balloon defence for instance. Where are all those victories? If Luftwaffe did count balloons as victories, they surely must have started that later in the war?

With regard to tanks I cannot think they counted as an aerial victory anywhere, unless the Allies had invented flying ones...:)
In such a case how do we look at Hans-Ulrich Rudel? The greatest ace of all time? I cannot believe the Luftwaffe had one counting system for fighter pilots and another for Stuka/SG pilots.

As with everything military during a long war, claims of course must have gone through some kind of evolution and it would be interesting, as Andy says, to see some primary evidence during the various stages of WW 2.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"
 

Hans Ulrich Rudel, the newly crowned Ace of Aces! S... H...! :)

Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"
 

Hi,

Having done a bit of digging, it seems that some victories over balloons were credited as part of an individual's personal victory tally, and others were not. See the attached for a few more bits of evidence regarding balloons being shot down. Victories over balloons are also mentioned in the Luftwaffe regulations (also see attached). However, as interesting as this topic is, I should get back to my own research!

Cheers,
Andrew A.

Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"
 

..which is why H-K Mayer's Bf 109 shows balloons as well as aircraft on its rudder

Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"
 

On the Allied side, a quick check of my lists shows there's not much mention of balloons. I dunno, maybe the Germans didn't use them much, or maybe the lists just don't contain that detail.
The official scores for Alexander Rabagliati and Stanislaw Brzeski appear to include balloons.
Peter

Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"
 

Hello all

Interesting discussion. Here is my interpretation. The Luftwaffe certainly counted destruction of ground targets including tanks, and these claims were part of the daily statistical data of various LW formations. Of course claims for tanks destroyed were not counted as aerial victories, but, claim for tank destroyed was of the same "value" as a confirmed aerial victory from the awards/promotions point of view (after all AFV is a hard target very difficult to knock out with aircraft weapons or ordnance of the period). That's why LW fighter pilots included them in the total tallies of their achievements (this is not the same as list of aerial victories).
And that's why I think this statement
is true, providing we would not count aerial victories as separate category in total list of one's achievements (Rudel's unique decoration readily comes to mind in this connection)

Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"
 

Gentlemen,

There is a huge difference between unmanned defensive barrage balloons and observation balloons (manned). The rarity of the latter in WW2 is why balloons feature so rarely in pilot's scores. From memory I believe some few were used by the Germans on the Eastern Front during the first year or two of the war there. One occasionally sees photos of these on EBay.

While H-K Mayer may have had these marked on his aircraft's rudder I bet they were not counted in his total of victories.

Regards,

Martin Gleeson.

Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"
 

Gentlemen,

Thanks for the responses. Regarding the question of whether balloons were included in a pilot's personal aerial victory tally, I believe the answer is "sometimes".

Looking at a list of all known Luftwaffe victory claims, there were at least ten for balloons submitted as individual aerial victory claims (and thus present in the victory claims microfilms). Nine of those were from the Eastern Front between 1942 and 1944, including the 12 September 1943 claim I included an extract from in my last post. Jochen Prien and his team list at least another eleven, of which seven are from 1939-1940, and four are from the Eastern Front in 1941.

I think Martin's post might be the key. The Luftwaffe regulations regarding claims distinguished between manned and unmanned balloons, so perhaps the type of balloon was the determining factor in whether it was added to the pilot's aerial victory tally. It might be the case that only manned balloons (which were a rare target and presumably only occurred on the Eastern Front) were included in a pilot's personal victory tally. Evidence of this is the comment by the claims adjudicator for the 12 September 1943 balloon, who wrote (rough translation) "In the documents it is not clear if this was a barrage balloon, manned balloon, or air ship". As a result, the claim was considered unconfirmed. All the other claims in the microfilms were confirmed, so the claimants in those cases must have specified that they shot down manned balloons.

Would be good to hear from others who have evidence regarding this subject.

Cheers,
Andrew A.

Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"
 

Hello Martin,

Haven't the whole picture but both sides on the East had used the manned observation balloons up to Nov.1944 at least.

Best regards,
Andrey

Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"
 

they were proud of balloon killing.


.

Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"
 

Very interesting
I was not aware of any manned balloons being used during WW 2 at all.

Can someone (Andrey?) expand a bit on this topic? Since balloons are more suitable whenever a front line is stable, were possibly these "balloon companies" mobile in themselves? Also balloons are usually very clumsy and time consuming to function, requiring special equipment and a large man power as well. To survive I would also say they needed a heavy defense structure as well. All in all a rather huge "investment" for comparable little gain.

So, exactly where and when were they used?

Cheers
Stig
PS: I agree with the theories that barrage balloons were not counted as victories. Manned ones? Why not?

Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"
 

Quite common on more stable parts of front i think observation and arti spotting. Were mobile. There are wochenschau movie clips of the working of these.



https://www.ebay.de/sch/i.html?_odkw=Ballon&_osacat=157544&_from=R40&_trks id=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR12.TRC2.A0.H0.XBeobachtun gsballon.TRS0&_nkw=Beobachtungsballon&_sacat=15754 4

Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"
 

Hello Stig,
As I wrote in previous post, I haven't a whole picture, the pieces only.

Germans had used the observation balloons certainly in June 1943 in Kuban bridgehead and in the end of 1944 in Kurland. Parts of Soviet 8.VDAAN (aeronautic battalion [дивизион] of artillery observation balloons) had used on Moonsund islands in Oct.-Nov.1944.

Positions of the balloons was covered by AA artillery and when possibly by fighters. Balloon observer had a parachute as a last resort. But the ground personnel usually had a time to lower the balloon before the fighter attack.

When in June 1943 Germans began to use the balloon in Kuban bridgehead, the group of 4 Airacobras several days had a special task to destroy it. But they succeeded only after several unsuccessful attempts. Observer had bailed out.

About the "little gain": the observation and artillery spotting by balloons were far more effective than the same by the aviation. But the use of the balloons was problematic in too many cases.

Best regards,
Andrey

Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"
 

Hi Guys

Regarding "reducing pilots scores" by not including non aircraft. Sorry, we were not trying to play "God" by deciding what was and wasn't a "Kill", we were always concerned about the "huge totals" being dismissed just because they were "huge totals", but we didn't reduce any without reason, reason being where did it end, could Hans-Ulrich Rüdel be the "top ace", perhaps double claims if Christmas day, or a sunday! Basically ignoring any "over-claiming" if it isn't an aircraft they didn't shoot-down an aircraft, would a wounded badge we awarded for the sniffles.....I think not.
We also excluded bordfunker claims, and those claimed whilst on the ground, the enemy aircraft had to be airborne. Many problems as well with "viermots". Somebody once enlightened me as to Italian claims, i.e everybody in the Staffel got a claim if somebody shoot one down, even if though airbourne they didn't fire a shot.

We could argue about half and quarter claims, but at least the aircraft fell.

Regards

Johannes

Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"
 

Thanks Everyone

Now I know a little more.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"
 

Good afternoon Johannes,

would you accept Herausschüsse as kills ?

Have a nice evening,

Michael

Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"
 

Hi Michael


If given the power to determine what makes a "kill" I personally would not i.e the very meaning of the claim means you claim not to have shot it down, but damaged it enough to cause it to drop-out of formation, but I didn't make the rules.

Almost all HSS claims do not appear to have been confirmed, but were covered within the "points system" from mid-1943. Some e.v claims appear on the mikrofilms as just that e.v, some HSS appear as v.n.e-a.s.m.


Erwin Lastowski's flugbuch reveals many claims marked as "Abschuss", however those found on the mikrofilms for him he actually numbers, he has more "abschuss" than numbered i.e his confirmed claims 11-15. I assume his Ritterkreuz for a lowly score of ten confirmed Russian aircraft(plus one unconfirmed) and five confirmed "viermots" must surely have been supplemented by the "points system", he spent quite some time as a trainer, perhaps a gifted one, never became an officer so didn't get the Ritterkreuz for any great leadership qualities.

JG 2 alone sometimes shared "viermot" claims ie. two claims with same anerk numbers. Actually I found Egon Mayer with twenty-seven(not twenty-five) to be the top "viermot" expert, most quoted figures are exactly twice what I found i.e Bühligen, a few like Wurmheller and Friedrich-Karl Müller(JG 53) got a lot more, Müller got the most in the shortest time!


Regards


Johannes

Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"
 

Dear Johannes,

Willi Reschke writes in his book that in the point system a HSS counted twice as much as an eV. He describes a fight in which he and another pilot shot down one bomber together and simultanously. They shared the kill with the more valuable HSS going to the other guy who was higher-ranking and the eV going to Reschke.

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"
 

Hi Michael

That sounds about right, 3 points to shoot-down a "viermot"....plus a "kill", 2 points for H.S.S claim, 1 point for E.V.

But that is generalising. With Oskar-Heinz Bär his own "200th" on 22nd April 1944(yet many of his "viermots" were not confirmed( by my own humble counting his 188th confirmed Bär I read, comes across a lone B-24 at a low altitude, he thinks the rear-gunner is already dead(everything would suggest then a H.S.S), the waiste-gunners state that the Fw190 that attacked them cut the top of their aircraft off, and that they could see the sky...…..this does not register as an E.V but a true "kill".

"Viermot abschusse" are never easy to explain.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"
 

Good afternoon Johannes,

Bär is one of my all-time favourites !
You were so kind to sent me your Bär kill list. Thanks again.
Can you tell me what the abbreviations "W.B." (11Oct42/13Mar43/23Mar43), "v.n.e-a.s.m" (25Feb44) and "A.S.M." (29Apr44/7Aug44) mean ?

I've found an other list that proposes that two of his 25Feb44 kills were HSS.

And have you ever come across an official document (passport/tombstone) that reveals if Heinrich or Oskar-Heinz was the name his parents gave him ?

All the best to you,

Michael